PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!

Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

Moderator: Paul Arden

User avatar
Bernd Ziesche
Posts: 1812
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
Location: Whereever the fish are!
Contact:

Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#31

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:56 am

Hi everyone,
I have been filming myself quite much lately in order to analyze more details about haul adjustment - especially when using different casting styles.
To me it seems important to realize, that we create hauling speed (additional speed of the fly line thru the guides) not only by accelerating the line hand, but at the same time accelerating the stripping guide in an (as much as possible) opposite direction (away from the line hand).

If for example I use the open stance and do not twist my upper body on every forward cast, this means I create a serious percentage of hauling speed (speed of the line thru the guides) by rotating the the rod (via rod hand) and due to that accelerating the stripping guide almost opposite directed to the line hand. Here I want to match max speed of the stripping guide with max speed of my hauling hand in order to make the line run thru the guides as fast as possible.
Since max speed of the stripping guide has to happen significant before RSP1 will take place, I want max line hand speed to happen before that, too. The distance for deceleration is quite small for the line hand here. So if I have huge rod bend to straighten still, it easily may happen that my line hand has stopped before the rod hits RSP1 (saw that in many of my videos of different casters, too). If the line hand was stopped too early, I may run into trouble with rod tip path...

Using the same style in the forward cast I can easily start the line hand acceleration more delayed compared to the back cast. And since my line hand will be accelerated more down (then it was in an almost horizontal path during the back cast) I will create significant less hauling speed by accelerating the stripping guide here (compared to the back cast). Not too easy to accelerate line hand and stripping guide almost opposite directed here (compared to the back cast)!
Still I would want to match max line hand speed with max speed of the stripping guide. Since it easily happens that I start to accelerate my line hand pretty late during the stroke here, and at the same time the distance of deceleration might be a little bigger than it was for the back cast, it easily happens that I still move (decelerate) my line hand while the rod hits max counterflex already. As Mike mentioned all that happens really FAST.
In my understanding this is no problem while hauling in false casting. But when shooting my line on distance I want the line to be free to shoot at RSP1. So I have to take care of "an early enough" release on the forward cast.

Watching the picture serious of Steve Rajeff shows how long his distance of deceleration for the lind hand on the forward cast can be! Pretty obvious he has to relase the line early here in order to not still keep it all the way into rebound maybe. John could be spot-on with "leg-position" here.

Now when trying to put all this in easy words for a beginner :cool: :D , I would (generally) recommend to start the haul when starting to rotate the rod or even a bit later (especially on the back cast).
And then feel the speed up of rod rotation happening parallel to the speed up of the line hand.
For the shoot think of an early release. How early? Not too early. Stop and at the very same time let go. It's not stop and THEN let go, but stop and let go in the same moment.

Of course it only can be a general recommendation to start with and then we have to work our way thru different techniques and change the force application via both hands in order to get (feel) the full picture and become a more variable fly caster.

Does that make any sense to anyone? :D :cool: :p
Greets
Bernd

p.s.: This is the style I was thinking about in this post.
A few more thoughts are on the fp today. :cool:
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
Posts: 3746
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again
Contact:

Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#32

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:58 pm

Hi Bernd

Why do you want haul and stripper to coincide in Max speed?

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

User avatar
Bernd Ziesche
Posts: 1812
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
Location: Whereever the fish are!
Contact:

Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#33

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:07 pm

Hi Lasse,
it feels effective to me when I accelerate them at the same time in (almost) opposite direction.
Matching both in max speed here, would result in higest speed of the line thru the guides as far as I understand it. Seems to be a good idea to me to create significant speed of the line tru the guides though.

What would you aim for instead and why?
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
Posts: 3746
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again
Contact:

Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#34

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:58 pm

Hi Bernd

I would like my peak haul speed to happen after the stripper has hit it's peak speed, and is slowing down. I really like it to hit peak as the rodtip changes direction, so I would get the highest linespeed. This would also be the point I'd like to release the line.

[vimeo]26927235[/vimeo]

When the stripper is moving the fastest, the tip of the rod is still lagging behind and hasn't reached it's peak speed in the direction of the cast yet.

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

User avatar
Bernd Ziesche
Posts: 1812
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
Location: Whereever the fish are!
Contact:

Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#35

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:09 pm

Hi Lasse,
I have taken some stills from your video:

Image

This is only for the forward casts. Your haul adjustment for your back casts differs (like it probably does for most of us).
If you want to release your line at the point when your tip path starts to change significally into a more downwarded path, it seems to me you have been quite late in those two casts?

I think in order to rise a general recommendation we may need way more videos. You use a huge arc in that video. Using a smaller arc and all this will be quite different again. Due to the wide the tip changes its path "early" (significant before RSP1). Anyway good point to think about.

I am not sure how much into detail we can adjust max line hand speed with what ever part of the rod movement anyway. As Mike said, it all hapens damned fast.
Do you agree that starting the acceleration of the line hand when starting to rotate the rod (or even a little later especially for the back cast) is a good hint in general?

The more I think about it, distance shooting is little different and it is only about the forward cast...

But in general hauling I mostly want to move both hands parallel first and then start to "spread the wings" (start to haul). When I start the haul I want the feeling of accelerating the line hand as good opposite directed to the first guide as possible. Watching most of my slomos it seems to me that I aim to stop my line hand when the butt section of the rod is stopped, too. In an average cast straightening happens very fast now.
I do not believe into aiming to haul thru the stop (RSP1).

Greets
Bernd

p.s.: Would love to see a video in which the line is free to shoot significant before RSP1 on such a huge arc (170). Let's say free to shoot in the moment the tip changes direction significally. Would be interesting to see what the tip (still accelerating along the line until RSP1) then would cause for the whole cast.
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
Posts: 3746
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again
Contact:

Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#36

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:08 pm

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH :evil:

Well that was one post down the drain.... Here's the shorter version.

Hi Bernd

I think it's safe to say we have a different oppinion about when the rodtip changes direction significantly :D

Here's a pic from the first cast:
releasetiming 010_314marked.jpg
releasetiming 010_314marked.jpg (52.38 KiB) Viewed 1968 times
Last dot is the point I release the line, I would have liked to have released at the point I'm at. This is where I hit peak haul speed, after that it's just follow though and shoulder rotation.

Here's a pic from the same cast, where the stripper guide hits it's peak speed:
releasetiming 010_292.JPG
releasetiming 010_292.JPG (37.76 KiB) Viewed 1968 times
Do you agree that starting the acceleration of the line hand when starting to rotate the rod (or even a little later especially for the back cast) is a good hint in general?
Rod rotation starts much earlier than I suggest people to start the haul, and I'm not talking about moving the linehand, but from when it's actually pulling line in through the rings. In general I suggest to start the haul after the rodbutt has passed though perpendicular.

I'm not sure things change so much for shorter casts, it's just that we have less time to manipulate things in, and that's why I think that ex. Paul says he hauls through to counterflex, I'm betting he peaks at the right time though and just follows through.

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

User avatar
Bernd Ziesche
Posts: 1812
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
Location: Whereever the fish are!
Contact:

Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#37

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:44 am

Lasse Karlsson wrote: Rod rotation starts much earlier than I suggest people to start the haul, and I'm not talking about moving the linehand, but from when it's actually pulling line in through the rings. In general I suggest to start the haul after the rodbutt has passed though perpendicular.

I'm not sure things change so much for shorter casts, it's just that we have less time to manipulate things in, and that's why I think that ex. Paul says he hauls through to counterflex, I'm betting he peaks at the right time though and just follows through.

Cheers
Lasse
Hi Lasse,
I agree rod rotation to start earlier (mostly) than I suggest to start the line hand pull. We are on the same page here. I believe that rod rotation mostly starts unintentional. I can see that in videos of me casting, too. Mostly rod rotation slightly starts before I wanted it to start :cool: :D But even though I know from video analyzing that rotation often slightly starts from the beginning (even for experienced casters), I want students to have their mind around starting rotation at the right time (which often is not the beginning of the stroke...).
Anyway since I agree with you I should at least say: "start the line hand pull when (intentional) starting the main rotation of the rod (or even little later)".
"Start the line hand pull when the rod butt passes perpendicular" is what I have used for a long time. Always worked well, too.
Taken into detail one would almost have to move the line hand parallel to the stripping guide when starting to rotate the rod to avoid starting to pull the line thru the guides. Otherwise distance between line hand and stripping guide easily starts to increase just by rotational movement of the rod.
Watching many videos I think it's fair to say: Even if the line hand pull may not be started before the rod butt passes perpendicular, the haul (line being pulled thru the guides) started with the (main) rotational movement of the rod butt (stripping guide will be moved...).

Here is a pic serious taken from one of the videos I made lately:

Image

I find it hard to say where exactly max speed of the line thru the guides will happen. But I think both, the line hand and the stripping guide need some distance left for deceleration. So it can't be at the end positions...

You are right, we have a bit of a different view about where the tip path significally changes in relation to the trajectory you are achieving in that cast (in your video linked above): :)

Image

Greets
Bernd

p.s.: Paul, is there a possibilty to lengthen the time before one gets automatically logged out while editing a (longer) post? I think that is the problem Lasse was referring to and I had it, too. :evil:
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

Michal Duzynski
Posts: 1135
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:14 pm
Location: Brisbane-Australia
Contact:

Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#38

Post by Michal Duzynski » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:35 pm

Hi Bernd
I really like your studies on the haul adjustments, distance phenomen, all your drawings, videos, technical analise I know it is to become more knowledgable as an instructor, caster, and just for a sake of the distance phenomen.I dont have much time to sit and wonder how to understand this from a technical inside, I want to , but you know family , job. Sometimes I dont even underatand it all.
Now my main question here to you , after all that, have you incrised your distance and your turnover on really long casts ?
cheers
mike

User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
Posts: 3746
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again
Contact:

Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#39

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:50 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote: Hi Lasse,

You are right, we have a bit of a different view about where the tip path significally changes in relation to the trajectory you are achieving in that cast (in your video linked above): :)

Image

Greets
Bernd

p.s.: Paul, is there a possibilty to lengthen the time before one gets automatically logged out while editing a (longer) post? I think that is the problem Lasse was referring to and I had it, too. :evil:
Hi Bernd

If you look at the dots representing the rodtip in that picture, there is a point where the forward component becomes shorter than the downwards component, just before that is where I would like to let go, since the rodtip for me changes direction significantly there. But nice to know your thoughts :)

It wasn't the logging out that killed my post, that was a driver error I'm sure :glare: I believe Paul has set it to 3 hours, and I didn't take that long :D

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

User avatar
Bernd Ziesche
Posts: 1812
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
Location: Whereever the fish are!
Contact:

Haul adjustment, when to stop rod & line hand

#40

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:57 pm

Michal Duzynski wrote:have you incrised your distance and your turnover on really long casts ?
Hi Mike,
that's a fair and good question. ;)
Not too long ago I had the very similar problem (same cause) with the last turnover in the forward cast on my longest carry than what I marked as the "distance phenomenon" for the turn over in distance shoots. I found that problem for the turn over with many very experienced casters in their distance shoots (in windless conditions) as well as for their last turn over in their forward casts on their longest carries. Now since I understand the cause I indeed found a way to make my carry unroll much better - almost as I want it to. Almost because am human (no robotic consistency possible) and then I would have to train it. :cool: Didn't train for quite a while now.
Also I now know that Lasse always was right in saying that he does not tick on long carries, while I was wrong about it. I now understand how it happens that the fluff can break the sound barrier while passing me and it was that sounds that me and quite a few other instructors were mistaking as ticking.
Again since now I understand the cause I can adjust the shape of my line dangle much more than I could before.
So yes, in my experience the biggest steps in increasing my technique never came with the amount of training but with the increase in knowledge. I think, if I know what to train, it makes it much more successful compared to training without the focus on what to improve exactly.
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

Post Reply

Return to “Flycasting”