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## The BIG THREE

Moderators: Paul Arden, stesiik

Bernd Ziesche
Posts: 1835
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
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### The BIG THREE

Malik wrote:It was mentioned by you both that a late rotation is an essential for a tight loop. Why ?
Hi Malik,
as you probably know we almost always have rotation and translation happening at the same time right from the beginning of the stroke. Well, if we take it to (slow motioned) detail that is . Therefore I like to use the term "main rotation" in order to describe my intention to start (or to position) the rotation during the stroke.
For a tight loop I position my main rotation in the last third of the stroke. The reason is because the translation first will increase line tension! Due to starting main rotation with an extra line tension, the tip path during the first third of the (main rotational) stroke will be less convex and closer to a straight line instead. That results in the tighter loop.
I should add that I also can decrease the y-position (height) of my rod hand during the beinning of the main rotational part of the stroke in order to avoid my tip moving in a too convex path. This is btw what I do when casting a rigid rod on distance (where a small arc will not allow me to hit the desired line speed but a huge arc easily results in a too convex tip path). From the teaching point of view I can tell that the "average bear" does not want to (feel comfortable to) decrease y-position of the rod hand in order to maintain tip path! That is why starting the stroke with mainly translation and then starting rotation after reaching the increased line tension will work best for 95% of my students - when shaping the tight loop.
Another advantage is that the increased line tension is best basement in order to achieve the smoothest possible force application. For example if we can reduce a little slack line BEFOREwe intend to start rotation - hell, that is a huge bonus for a good cast (as I understand it)!
Malik wrote: (I ask the question because, in my style, for cast at short and average distances, it is the opposite which is true — the idea being that, on this type of cast, more the rotation is anticipated, more you have the space to “compensate” it with the thrust and the follow through)
Now this might be a bit tricky to get on the same page here and I have already come across this point when I worked on my 6 essentials some time ago.
For sure I agree: the earlier you will have finished rotation, the more distance of rod hand path you will have available for the thrust movement (and follow thru). Besides that I would make a bet that starting with a small translation first and then rotate the rod into the thrust movement will give you smoothest casting and tightest loops. If you move your rod hand along a straight path and start rotating the rod right from the beginning, the tip most likely will move along a convex path during the beginning of the stroke. I believe there is always a little room for improving line tension BEFORE starting rotation - even though I know that in TLT you have extra line tension before starting the forward cast compared to other styles. I would aim for both: Significant thrust and rotation at the right time.

Let me offer another point of view:
Even when I aim for the smallest arc possible on a SHORT line (in medium line speed), I don't intend to start rotation right from the beginning of the stroke when aiming for tightest possible loops! The slightest translational move FIRST, is always a significant improvement in getting the tighest loops.

Many might tell you: there is no use to position your rotation in the last part of the stroke for a short line. And that this technique is for distance experts ONLY - But I disagree.

Rotate the rod during the while stroke = open loop.
Rotate the rod mainly during the last part of the stroke = tighter loop.

Same as:

Wide arc (in relation to the desired line speed) = open loop.
Smallest possible arc (in relation to the desired line speed) = tighter loop.

The combination of both is what in my understanding marks the expert. And again:
It is not always about high line speed and tight loops. Easily it can be low line speed and open loops matching best in a fishing situation. Rotation during the whole stroke might be the sign of an expert as well here (Marc).
For example when rolling a sunken line to the surface I use rotation during the whole stroke.
That is why I call it "rotation at the right time".
Will wrote: If the rod rotates before it is bent it is very likely that the rod tip will rise thereby starting a concave tip path from the start of the stroke. I guess this could be reduced by dropping the hand as rotation starts, but that may limit distance eventually.
Hi Will,
in my understanding rod bend is (mainly) the necessary result of rotating the rod in order to produce the desired line speed. So in this regard I understand rod bend will mainly come by rotation (as line speed will).
I am not sure if I understand your sentence above yet. Maybe you meant convex instead of concave?
Personally I would NOT say that the rod "is bent" before I start the main rotation when aiming to shape a tight loop (main rotation in the last third of the stroke). As I wrote I prefer to say: I have increased line tension and yes, the rod shows a little bend already. But watching my slomos this is little bend.
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

Will
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:44 pm

### The BIG THREE

Yep, dammit I meant convex! Apologies. Totally agree with your post above. :-)

W.
Lineslinger
Barrio Pro-team
SGAIC
AAPGAI

"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
WC Stewart

Malik
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:05 pm
Location: Switzerland

### The BIG THREE

Hi Bernd

Very interesting and instructive answer, thank you very much !

I agree with it. As I wrote it, the problem of the qualification of the timing (delayed or anticipated, I prefer now “at the right time") of what you purpose to call the main rotation (good formula) is, according to me, largely connected to the history of the teaching of our styles.

I try to make short a long story and to simplify at most because of my poor skills in English.

In the basic cast of the Italian technique, the "angolato" (as discussed here: http://www.sexyloops.co.uk/cgi-bin/theb ... 4166;st=40 ), one of the big and critical problem as you may be remember is to deal with the CF to avoid that the rod-leg of the loop takes a parallel trajectory.

With a "late" main rotation, the MPA takes place during the rotation and produces, if I can say it, a later CF than a more "anticipated" rotation. On the other hand, a more "anticipated" rotation followed by a directional thrust (moment of the MPA) allows “to compensate” a bit the main rotation and the CF and produces a less convex path of the rod tip — a more linear one (tighter loop) — while the rod itself is also loaded in compression and not only in rotation, which is probably going to stiffen it a little bit (slomo seems to confirm this strange phenomena: S-shape of the rod, a bit less CF as a result). Other important element, the MPA is applied then to a line already in tension, of course, but also in movement, and allows to obtain (if need and without haul) a very high line velocity just by applying a smooth, short and directional acceleration. And I believe that the instructors FFF who participated in the workshop "italian style" that I gave the last year in the EWF in Munich was positively surprised by the speed and the control of line obtained in this way.

During some years, before the slomo, (and here intervenes the history of the teaching of the style) the motto was to make the MPA on a final rotation (with the wrist) to have the maximum of angular velocity at the end of the stroke (in italian “la botta finale” – “the final blow”... ). It was correct on a certain plan, but this rotation at the end of casting stroke (then very long in this style) unfortunately produces an important CF which puts the rod- leg of the loop on a parallel trajectory and prevents the fly to arrive before the line and the leader on the water (and to land the fly first is supposed to be the goal of this didactical cast). Since then, the idea to apply the MPA not during the rotation but as much as possible with a very short linear and directional push (thrust) was introduced, with some success, into the didactics. And that is why, seen the history of this style, I spoked about "early" rotation, just because it intervenes... before the thrust.

I hope that all this Italian internal cooking and work-in-progress laboriously explained by an half polyglot Swiss makes sense to you. If not : just too bad, because I know how to cook a good coffee

Best regards

Malik

Bernd Ziesche
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### The BIG THREE

Hi Malik,
that makes sense to me. Quite interesting stuff for sure. Hopefully we can meet somewhere this year and discuss some stuff the EASY way . I don't drink coffee but we will find some other good stuff from Switzerland for sure!
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

Malik
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:05 pm
Location: Switzerland

### The BIG THREE

Hi Bernd
Very good idea. I know also how to prepare the fondue
I send you my details by MP.
Cheers
Malik

Morsie
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:14 am

### The BIG THREE

I really like that trajectory is in here. Poorly understood and not instructed often enough.

Morsie

Malik
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:05 pm
Location: Switzerland

### The BIG THREE

Hi Bernd
I just sent you 2 MP. Did you receive it this time ?
Cheers
Malik

Carl Phillip Emanuel
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 7:31 pm

### The BIG THREE

The five principlese:

1 SLP which is a result of tracking and other 4 coming together,
2 Proper sized Casting Arc
3 Elimination of Slack
4 Proper application of Force
5 Correct Timing

Dear fellow casters,

I found this thread during search for loop shaping.

My humble opinion on the five principles:

My main concern regarding these principles: they are not independent of each others and they are highly ambiguous. For example "Proper application of Force" leaves out the answer to "what is 'proper'?", thus basically explains, ehrrm - nothing. I can give you a bit of an answer via principle 3: Elimination of slack is "proper", same applies to SLP (SLP implies almost constant (I woud say: continuously differentiable and constant or constantly increasing) acceleration).

Since force is a time & space dependent vector quantity, the correct timing of applying this force is part of the very nature of itself (meaning P5 is covered by P4 anyway) . Same goes for P2 regarding the spacial aspect of the force vector.

BTW: the trajectory is a result of "proper" application of force. Thus two of the BIG THREE are already covered by the "proper force" principle.

Hmmm. Actually, this leaves me in a big mess.

Kind regards, Norbert

Paul Arden
Site Admin
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### The BIG THREE

Yes, the very thing you dislike about them I like about them, Norbert! If I was to whittle them all down to one essential it would be proper application of force, which as you correctly point out could mean absolutely anything!

What I don't like about these essentials is the SLP. I prefer this: http://www.sexyloops.com/articles/intendedtippath.shtml
However in order to understand Intended Tip Path I think you need to understand SLP.

Anyway the value in this construct is that it allows both instructors and students to isolate some key components of the casting stroke and in particular (IMO) the requirement of a variable Casting Arc.

Loop shaping on the other hand is an incredibly complicated subject. We know the initial loop shape is determined by the path the rod tip follows, the fly leg is shaped by the rod tip up to RSP (usually!) and the rod leg from RSP to MCF. I don't think anyone understands loop morph.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

Carl Phillip Emanuel
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 7:31 pm

### The BIG THREE

This helped a lot. Sometimes I really have to hold the physicist in me at bay...

Regarding loop shaping I'll continue elsewhere...

Cheers, Norbert