Hi Malik,Malik wrote:It was mentioned by you both that a late rotation is an essential for a tight loop. Why ?
as you probably know we almost always have rotation and translation happening at the same time right from the beginning of the stroke. Well, if we take it to (slow motioned) detail that is . Therefore I like to use the term "main rotation" in order to describe my intention to start (or to position) the rotation during the stroke.
For a tight loop I position my main rotation in the last third of the stroke. The reason is because the translation first will increase line tension! Due to starting main rotation with an extra line tension, the tip path during the first third of the (main rotational) stroke will be less convex and closer to a straight line instead. That results in the tighter loop.
I should add that I also can decrease the y-position (height) of my rod hand during the beinning of the main rotational part of the stroke in order to avoid my tip moving in a too convex path. This is btw what I do when casting a rigid rod on distance (where a small arc will not allow me to hit the desired line speed but a huge arc easily results in a too convex tip path). From the teaching point of view I can tell that the "average bear" does not want to (feel comfortable to) decrease y-position of the rod hand in order to maintain tip path! That is why starting the stroke with mainly translation and then starting rotation after reaching the increased line tension will work best for 95% of my students - when shaping the tight loop.
Another advantage is that the increased line tension is best basement in order to achieve the smoothest possible force application. For example if we can reduce a little slack line BEFOREwe intend to start rotation - hell, that is a huge bonus for a good cast (as I understand it)!
Now this might be a bit tricky to get on the same page here and I have already come across this point when I worked on my 6 essentials some time ago.Malik wrote: (I ask the question because, in my style, for cast at short and average distances, it is the opposite which is true — the idea being that, on this type of cast, more the rotation is anticipated, more you have the space to “compensate” it with the thrust and the follow through)
For sure I agree: the earlier you will have finished rotation, the more distance of rod hand path you will have available for the thrust movement (and follow thru). Besides that I would make a bet that starting with a small translation first and then rotate the rod into the thrust movement will give you smoothest casting and tightest loops. If you move your rod hand along a straight path and start rotating the rod right from the beginning, the tip most likely will move along a convex path during the beginning of the stroke. I believe there is always a little room for improving line tension BEFORE starting rotation - even though I know that in TLT you have extra line tension before starting the forward cast compared to other styles. I would aim for both: Significant thrust and rotation at the right time.
Let me offer another point of view:
Even when I aim for the smallest arc possible on a SHORT line (in medium line speed), I don't intend to start rotation right from the beginning of the stroke when aiming for tightest possible loops! The slightest translational move FIRST, is always a significant improvement in getting the tighest loops.
Many might tell you: there is no use to position your rotation in the last part of the stroke for a short line. And that this technique is for distance experts ONLY - But I disagree.
Rotate the rod during the while stroke = open loop.
Rotate the rod mainly during the last part of the stroke = tighter loop.
Wide arc (in relation to the desired line speed) = open loop.
Smallest possible arc (in relation to the desired line speed) = tighter loop.
The combination of both is what in my understanding marks the expert. And again:
It is not always about high line speed and tight loops. Easily it can be low line speed and open loops matching best in a fishing situation. Rotation during the whole stroke might be the sign of an expert as well here (Marc).
For example when rolling a sunken line to the surface I use rotation during the whole stroke.
That is why I call it "rotation at the right time".
Hi Will,Will wrote: If the rod rotates before it is bent it is very likely that the rod tip will rise thereby starting a concave tip path from the start of the stroke. I guess this could be reduced by dropping the hand as rotation starts, but that may limit distance eventually.
in my understanding rod bend is (mainly) the necessary result of rotating the rod in order to produce the desired line speed. So in this regard I understand rod bend will mainly come by rotation (as line speed will).
I am not sure if I understand your sentence above yet. Maybe you meant convex instead of concave?
Personally I would NOT say that the rod "is bent" before I start the main rotation when aiming to shape a tight loop (main rotation in the last third of the stroke). As I wrote I prefer to say: I have increased line tension and yes, the rod shows a little bend already. But watching my slomos this is little bend.