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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

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Dennis Pat
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#1

Post by Dennis Pat » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:24 pm

Hi, I'm new to the forum. Question: I'm inclined to get myself a cane rod because I read on Midcurrent that due to it's mass, a cane rod loads better and therefore requires less line speed. The rod supposedly does most of the work making casting into the wind a breeze. Is this true?

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Rich Knoles
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#2

Post by Rich Knoles » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:44 pm

Welcome to the Board, Dennis. My experience is that high line speed and small loops are whats needed when casting in windy conditions. I'm also learning that Cane rods aren't really that different than Carbon rods,weight aside.

Snake Pliskin
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#3

Post by Snake Pliskin » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:45 pm

Hi Dennis! No not really!
When casting into the wind, it's usually a good idea for the line to be going quite fast. When you want the line to move fast, you move the rod fast, and the rod bends more. And that goes for all rods.
Although they vary, some cane rods can be softer than we're used to. And for me all that bend when trying to cast into a wind is not quite to my taste. Some cane rods are much stiffer though. At the end of the day it's really you who does the work, so I'd just choose a rod that I like the feel of. If that turns out to be cane, then cool.

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Paul Arden
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#4

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:09 pm

Welcome to the Board, Dennis :cool:

Nope I don't agree with the statement either! The loop has to penetrate the wind no matter what rod is used.

Hope to see you in Gerik later this week.
Cheers,
Paul
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Marc Fauvet
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#5

Post by Marc Fauvet » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:07 am

Dennis Pat wrote: Is this true?
nope !

Dennis Pat
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#6

Post by Dennis Pat » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:49 am

Thanks for the welcome guys!

Paul, I'll bring my passport just in case we meet up in Gerik!

When casting into a headwind I try to generate higher line speed without over powering the rod, and I also try to track as straight as possible.

But supposing I am casting 2 rods identical in action, one being graphite and the other cane. Same power and acceleration into the stroke. Wouldn't the cane rod, due to its greater mass be more advantageous since an unloading rod should generate higher torque, thus powering the line into the wind better than the graphite rod? Thanks.

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Paul Arden
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#7

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:00 am

Hi Dennis,

Yep I'm up for a trip over the border for some Enlightenment :cool:

I think we can take the wind out of the argument. The suggestion being made is that rod with heaver mass will generate higher line speed. I think the opposite is true, for the same force the acceleration will be higher with the lighter rod. Otherwise we should be throwing cane in competition. I have thrown cane in Shootouts incidentally, it's been harder work and distance has been shorter.

Cheers, Paul
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Bernd Ziesche
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#8

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:11 am

Hi Dennis,
in order to cast into the wind you need:

a) a straight as possible fly-leg and a tight as possible loop front

b) high line speed

c) trajectory should match (especially for longer line carries it is important to understand: horizontal trajectory will give lowest surface to the wind)

The (usually stiffer) graphite rod will make it much easier to:

a) shape a tight loop front and a straight as possible fly-leg

b) create highest possible line speed

The bamboo rod will have huge counterflex (after having straightened again) and that will result in opening up the loop front easily. And then the bamboo rod probably may have a higher diameter. That means higher resistance against the wind while rotating the rod.

I can't think of any advantage with the bamboo rod here.

As Paul said the same counts in a windless situation.

Bamboo rods are not made to win a competition against graphite rods. They are made to have huge fun in fishing and yes, casting, too. Fun is not always about the tighest loop or the highest distance :cool: .

Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

Dennis Pat
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#9

Post by Dennis Pat » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:36 am

Paul Arden wrote:Yep I'm up for a trip over the border for some Enlightenment :cool:
Man, could I do with some Enlightenment now! The border's a 4 hour drive. Heading straight to the Temple of Happy Endings to sort my head out right away, LOL!

Bernd, thanks for the advice.
So far, I haven't much opportunity to cast bamboo rods here in Kuala Lumpur. I'd like to own one though, if not to cast with, just admiring it inside my glass cabinet, and occasionally taking it out to fiddle with would be fun!

Actually, I was curious with this quote,
“All those black rods were strapped to the top of people’s pickups in the parking lot, but I kept fishing straight into the teeth of the wind, because with bamboo you can load the rod without needing a lot of line speed.” http://midcurrent.com/gear/choosing-cane/

So it seems, besides the fun factor and other intangibles, the inherent qualities of cane makes it superior to graphite when casting into the wind?

cheers,
Dennis

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Bernd Ziesche
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#10

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:39 am

Dennis Pat wrote: “All those black rods were strapped to the top of people’s pickups in the parking lot, but I kept fishing straight into the teeth of the wind, because with bamboo you can load the rod without needing a lot of line speed.” http://midcurrent.com/gear/choosing-cane/
Hi Dennis,
creating fly line speed is not a question of loading a fly rod and then the fly rod will speed up the line.
That is a huge missunderstanding in fly casting.

In order to create fly line speed we will (mainly) rotate (and at the same time translate) the fly rod. During this process the fly rod will bend and then (when we decelerate rotation) the rod will straighten again. Just in that moment when the rod has straightened again, the rod tip will hit maximum speed. The same goes to the fly line just behind the tip of course.

Fly casting is a process, which in detail depends on many different factors and varies from cast to cast. But we will often achieve a high percentage of the overall maximum fly line speed in a given cast BEFORE the fly rod will START to straighten (to unload). During rotation of the rod we have stored some of the energy (that we added to rotate the rod) in the bended (loaded) rod. During straightening (unloading) some of that energy goes into additional line speed.
The softer the rod is, the lower the line speed we will achieve until max rod bend (fully loaded rod) will be. As far as I understand it, this is the most important part of creating line speed. Again the additional part in the overall line speed that we achieve during straightening of the rod is much smaller.
If you think of the rod as a flexible lever then the "effective length" of that leaver will decrease proportional to rod bend. A longer leaver usually results in more line speed. Since the resistance we have to overcome in order to rotate a LOONG (flexible) leaver will also increase, there will be a point for everyone at which the rotational speed will be slowed down that much, that the longer leaver no longer will be a plus in line speed.
So it is not possible to say which rod will result in highest line speed to everyone and in every situation. Instead it is highly variable.

Anyway all in all it's fair to say: The highest distances (highest line speeds) come with the stiffer rods. Not totally stiff though, but stiffer than most bamboo rods for sure.

Hope that helps.

The (wrong) idea of loading a fly rod and then it will fire of the line during unloading is what we call the "big loading concept". Sounds nice but is wrong as it can be.

Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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