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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

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Marc Fauvet
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#41

Post by Marc Fauvet » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:56 pm

or get a fast boo rod. best of both worlds... :cool:

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Paul Arden
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#42

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:29 am

Hi Bernd,

I don't agree that the stiffest rod gives the longest distance. Otherwise I'd be borrowing Alejandro's Broomstick for competition! The rod needs to bend into a relatively straight tip path for a significant part if the stroke. Now I know that you can do this using a rigid rod and Swoop but that's not how I achieve my highest distances. At some point I get diminishing returns as the rod gets stiffer. I consistently throw a five line further on a TCX6 than a TCX10 for example. I know this because I spent six weeks casting the 10 and became very familiar with it, but never reached the distances I can with the TCX6, and even after six weeks when I got my hands on the 6 it immediately felt right!

Cheers Paul
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grunde
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#43

Post by grunde » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:10 am

Svend wrote: Oh and by all means go and get a bamboo rod. But don't get it because somebody told you that it is superior to plastic, get it because you like fishing a bamboo rod, because you love how it feels in YOUR hands, or maybe just because you appreciate the craftsmanship and skill that went into making it. It'll cast into the wind just fine, provided your casting is up to par.
:-)

Well said!
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful."
George E. P. Box

Always question the assumptions!

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Bernd Ziesche
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#44

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:08 am

Paul Arden wrote:Hi Bernd
I don't agree that the stiffest rod gives the longest distance. Otherwise I'd be borrowing Alejandro's Broomstick for competition! The rod needs to bend into a relatively straight tip path for a significant part if the stroke. Now I know that you can do this using a rigid rod and Swoop but that's not how I achieve my highest distances. At some point I get diminishing returns as the rod gets stiffer. I consistently throw a five line further on a TCX6 than a TCX10 for example.
Hi Paul,
did you read post 38? ;) (nothing to disagree here)
Bernd Ziesche wrote: But then again when it comes to a long line or distance one will need highest possible line speed, too. This requires a relatively long distance of acceleration. So we increase the size of arc. And this is what makes it extra hard to still shape tight loops while using a broomstick. Most very good casters I have seen here, immediately loose their tight loops and the cast easily collapses. Also a broomstick or a very stiff rod will mean more mass and higher swing weight. This in addition may slow down rotational speed too much for a lot of casters.
There is way more to take into account then just increasing stiffnes to throw faster and tighter loops. Probably every caster has his personal point at which a rod simply gets too stiff (or too soft either) to achieve an overall benefit anymore (depending on the purpose).
Hi Svend,
well said!
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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Lasse Karlsson
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#45

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:22 am

Yup, there's more to it than just stiffness :cool:

Lasse Karlsson,Oct. 30 2012,18:22 wrote:5 rods of differing ERN

Sage XP 590: ERN 5,5 AA 70
Sage TCR 590: ERN 7,4 AA 72
Streamstix T5: ERN 9,0 AA 75
Echo ION 1090: ERN 11,6 AA 75
Echo 3 1290: ERN 13,7 AA 70

Line ED 5 weight (well used ;) )

I did first 5 casts with each, starting with the XP and going stiffer, then did another round of 5 going softer after I got to the 12 weight.
Conditions where basicly no wind with the occasional gust, just around sunset so the dew fell during the exercise.

Also did a max carry with each just to see the numbers..

XP Avg.: 34,6 m Longest: 36,1 m Carry: 27,3 m

TCR Avg.: 35,6 m Longest: 37,6 m Carry: 29,2 m

T5 Avg.: 34,5 m Longest: 38,1 m Carry: 28,5 m

ION Avg.: 35,2 m Longest: 38,4 m Carry: 28,1 m

E3 Avg.: 36,4 m Longest: 38,3 m Carry: 27,1 m

I need to do this indoors this winter to check, and to do it while warm, cast cold due to fading light :blush: So the stiffer rods basicly got the advantage, should have gone the other way around too, but it got too dark to see the line on the delivery..

But some interesting results never the less :)

Cheers
Lasse
Went out again this afternoon to try it in reverse order (12 first all the way down to 5 and up) And took the rod I usually throw 5 weight distance with to get a reference point.

XP Avg.: 36,2 m Longest: 37,2 m Carry: 26,5 m

TCR Avg.: 38,5 m Longest: 39,3 m Carry: 28,1 m

T5 Avg.: 37,4 m Longest: 38,9 m Carry: 28,6 m

ION Avg.: 38,6 m Longest: 39,3 m Carry: 26,8 m

E3 Avg.: 37,1 m Longest: 39,1 m Carry: 27,2 m

Control rod:

TCX 690 Avg.: 39,3 m Longest: 40,3 Carry: 28,8 m

Data on the TCX ERN 8,4 AA 74.

Had a steady wind today as the numbers show :)

And I think the control rod answers Mike's question pretty clearly, it's definetly the one I would choose for competition ;)

Now I just have to redo indoors to get a third set of data in a controlled enviroment :)

Cheers
Lasse
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Merlin
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#46

Post by Merlin » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:59 pm

Theoritical cast with a non linear model, two rods of same stiffness but different weigth, same non linearity, so same action overall. With an average cast the difference in line speed is negligible, there is more power needed to move the bamboo rod at the same pace and less energy efficiency because of its swing weight.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

Dennis Pat
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#47

Post by Dennis Pat » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:36 pm

Svend wrote:if you can accept, or even understand, why the big spring concept is misleading, you're already ahead of the game. So that's a good thing.
Hi Svend and Aitor,

Yes, I realize now that the cast is dependent on rod translation and rotation in creating line speed, and that rod bend has very little to do with the actual propulsion of the line, if not a bow and arrow cast would go a long way just by bending the rod.

thanks guys.

cheers,
Dennis

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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#48

Post by Dennis Pat » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:42 pm

Marc Fauvet wrote:or get a fast boo rod. best of both worlds... :cool:

Hi Marc, excellent proposition!!

Dennis

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Bernd Ziesche
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#49

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:14 pm

Merlin wrote:-there is more power needed to move the bamboo rod at the same pace and less energy efficiency because of its swing weight.
Thanks Merlin, that sounds very plausible to me.
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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Bernd Ziesche
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Bamboo rods. Casting into the wind

#50

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:23 pm

Dennis Pat wrote:if not a bow and arrow cast would go a long way just by bending the rod.
Hi Dennis,
am not sure if I understand you correct here.

A while ago I made a small experiment:

I sticked my rod butt in a vertical pipe I had in the grass. Then I took off 20m fly line (outside the tip) and loaded the rod about a degree that I do not achive when casting that length of line. So I had extra load already. I let go and nothing I would call to be a cast happened. The energy stored in the rod (even with extra energy on top) was not enough to fire of such a length of line.

Now this is important to understand:
In a bow and arrow cast we put a size of bend in the rod that does not match for the length of line we cast out with that bow and arrow cast. If you only add that bend to the rod (for the bow and arrow cast) which you have while aerilizing the same amount of line in false casting, not much happens!
Only if we add extra bend for a relatively short line by pulling on the rod we can get that cast really working. And then there might be a little rotation of the butt section involved as well.
Greets
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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