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Marc Fauvet
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#61

Post by Marc Fauvet » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:19 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote: There was a reason why we called them wind knots.
hmmm, and i always thought that was just an excuse to blame some outside element instead of the caster... :D

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Lasse Karlsson
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#62

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:38 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote:There was a reason why we called them wind knots.
Greets
Bernd
Always wondered about that one, most people get them mostly when there's no wind :)

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#63

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:43 pm

Marc Fauvet wrote:
Lasse Karlsson wrote: And you can get a tail in the leader without the tip going booing??
hey Lasse,
(i'm assuming you mean rod tip ?) well, why not ? there has to be a wave but maybe it's so small (and maybe propagates so fast) we can't see it. couldn't a leader tail on it's own even if the line seems spot on ?
what i mean (or rather am trying to understand) is why couldn't there be a micro-wave traveling down the fly line that has an effect to the lighter leader and not to the heavier fly line.
this could all be bunk of course... :D :D :D

cheers,
marc
Hi Marc

Yup, I mean rodtip, just being touchyfeely with the poet here ;)

If there's a wave, I'm betting that it was put there by the rodtip.

And let's think this one through. If we want a big tail right in front of the rod, we have to make the booing just at the end of our cast. If we want it to show up far out right when things turn over, we have to make it right at the beginning of our cast/stroke. If we do it at the very beginning, it won't travel that fast, it will be carried along until the loop runs out of energy and then take charge :cool:

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#64

Post by Marc Fauvet » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:13 am

sorry Lasse, i had to catch up on some Sir Walter Raleigh, Yeats and Ralph Waldo Emerson before giving you a proper reply. :)
i already brought up the obvious presence of a wave so let's forget that. i also know how to place tails at various points of the line so let's leave that too.
so, how, in your opinion does a 'wind-knot' happen when the fly line itself doesn't tail or even have a 'tendency to tail' ?
even though we usually basically consider a leader as a continuity of the fly line (tapers, proportions, energy transmission and dispersion, etc) i'm wondering if things might happen differently past the nail knot. there's been a lot of studies on the line but not so much as far as i know on leaders.

cheers,
marc

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#65

Post by Alejandro » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:35 am

Lasse Karlsson wrote: I mostly agree with that, not really sure it needs to ascend, but that's for further study :)
Alejandro wrote:If you maintain or decrease the radius of the curve that follows the rod tip never will see a transverse traveling wave, you need to increase that radius, and that can be translated in the colloquial language in a rise of the rod tip.
Lasse Karlsson wrote: I'll buy that, but think I need to put it into other words :)
I'll explain it another way: in the wave of a tailing loop the line changes direction two times: lowers and raises. The climb of the line reflects a rise of the rod tip. You can not make a tailing loop moving the tip rod only one way, how you can not make a loop accelerating the rod only in one direction.

I must clarify that for me the wind knots are those that appear inadvertently for the fisherman in the last 30 cm of the leader, near the fly.

I can make some wind knots bouncing a thin leader with a bad timing. I can also make wind knots in spey cast with piled anchors, and in presentation cast with some sorts of piled cast.
I can do it in another way, and I think maybe that's how it usually happens, but still do not know what is :(
Of course I can easily make knots with tailing loops with collision trajectory, but are too far from the fly and are too obvious so that I may consider wind knots.

A classic and pure tailing loop does not close the loop at the end of its extension, rather opens. How then can make a knot in those last few inches?

In this video we see a beginner caster. He makes inadvertently tailing loops in each cast, but I see no way he make a wind knot.

The usual tangle produced by a tailing loop with collide trajectory is quite obvious: the line hit itself, and in the process may make an overhand knot, but almost always at the top of the leader or even on the line. Also, not seems something that can be unnoticed for the fisherman, as often happens with most of the wind knots.

In this video we see it clearly http://howtoflyfish.orvis.com/406-corre ... g-mistakes

Maybe some particular form of tailing loop can produce what I call wind knots, but I do not know. The micro-tailing it says Bern may be an explanation, but to cause knots beside the fly should have a very small amplitude and high speed, and this does not seem compatible with the rise and fall of the tip of the rod that we see as an example of tailing in any video.

Cheers
Alejandro

P.D. I totally agree with Marc, apparently there is a clear relationship between the leader design and the the greater or lesser susceptibility to the occurrence of wind knots.

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#66

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:45 pm

Hi Alejadro,
I agree with most of your thoughts.
Something I have been realising during the past 10 years:
If I use a 4,5m long pretty thin monofilament leader (thin butt section, too for better sinking) for coastal Sea trout fishing (mostly casting max distance), a heavy weighted fly leaves only a very few (often none) knots during the day.
If I use the same leader but change to an unweighted fly, I get much more wind knots in the last 100 cm of the leader.
Now why is that?
I my understanding the fly will be pulled by the end of the fly-leg. Then at the end of the fly lines turnover the weighted fly pulls the leader straight = no knots come in.
Since the leader has too low mass (immediately resulting in low energy at the end of the turnover of the fly line) it cannot transport the unweighted fly about 4,5m further distance. So the leader piles up to some degree and I easily get a wind knot.
I have watched this many years now. Does my explanation make sense to you?

I think you are spot-on, that most wind knots are not caused by the tailing loop itself. But isn't it a fact that those who throw tailing loops don't get the leader straight often, too and instead making it pile up to some degree?

Another interesting observation of mine is: If I cast in heavy winds and sometimes I have waves in my fly-leg just because the (changing) wind made it inpossible to keep smooth in acceleration, there are still almost no knots in my leader when using a weighted fly. This sometimes made me wonder why even though my casting looked crappy I had no knots in the end of a day.
And on the other end of the story: Casting on grass using a fluff and not adjusting the leader perfectly to the fluff and I result in many wind knots always, no matter on how much care I take about my loops!
I doubt a usual dry fly monofilament leader has the energy to transport the fluff until the end of the straight leader in an average cast without the help of wind or adding a short pull-back or whatever. Just a small split shot and most knots are gone (I tried that).
Greets
Bernd
p.s.: Shall we open another thread since we are now years off-topic? :ninja:
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#67

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:39 pm

Alejandro wrote: I'll explain it another way: in the wave of a tailing loop the line changes direction two times: lowers and raises. The climb of the line reflects a rise of the rod tip. You can not make a tailing loop moving the tip rod only one way, how you can not make a loop accelerating the rod only in one direction.
Hi Alejandro

So if the tip dips, and then moves forward, there should be no tail? It still changes direction two times, but it does not rise...
You might not remember, but we talked about tails and causes at the nice afternoon lunch in Spain several years ago.
I must clarify that for me the wind knots are those that appear inadvertently for the fisherman in the last 30 cm of the leader, near the fly.

I can make some wind knots bouncing a thin leader with a bad timing. I can also make wind knots in spey cast with piled anchors, and in presentation cast with some sorts of piled cast.
I can do it in another way, and I think maybe that's how it usually happens, but still do not know what is :(
Of course I can easily make knots with tailing loops with collision trajectory, but are too far from the fly and are too obvious so that I may consider wind knots.

I haven't got a so clear distinction about what is a true windknot and what is not. I usually see them appear in the first half of the leader, that is towards the fly. The last half, I have to make a consious effort to put them there.
A classic and pure tailing loop does not close the loop at the end of its extension, rather opens. How then can make a knot in those last few inches?
The fly is coming first from above the rodleg, then down below and then it has to rise again above the rod leg... I agree that when the fly doesn't intersect with the rodleg, the leader rises and opens.

A little exercise. Take a leader with a fly, make the last part of what we see as a tailing loop, that is straight rodleg, closed loopfront with the fly and leader haning straight down. Have it touch, and then quickly make it rise. Does it a. move in a nice straight line and passes the rodleg with out incident? b. wiggle back and forth? if b. then we just might have a clue as to how a knot can form :)
In this video we see a beginner caster. He makes inadvertently tailing loops in each cast, but I see no way he make a wind knot.

The usual tangle produced by a tailing loop with collide trajectory is quite obvious: the line hit itself, and in the process may make an overhand knot, but almost always at the top of the leader or even on the line. Also, not seems something that can be unnoticed for the fisherman, as often happens with most of the wind knots.
Most fishermen are only aware what is happening in front of themselves, and quite a few not even that. The majority of knots in my leaders are made in my backcast. I know because I have a strong habbit of looking at my backcast. And I can tell when I have to undo a windknot....
Maybe some particular form of tailing loop can produce what I call wind knots, but I do not know. The micro-tailing it says Bern may be an explanation, but to cause knots beside the fly should have a very small amplitude and high speed, and this does not seem compatible with the rise and fall of the tip of the rod that we see as an example of tailing in any video.

Cheers
Alejandro

P.D. I totally agree with Marc, apparently there is a clear relationship between the leader design and the the greater or lesser susceptibility to the occurrence of wind knots.
What do most people do when they see a loop not unrolling?

And I might have to look into leader design, can one of you give me a clue to a real knotmaker of a design?

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Lasse
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Bernd Ziesche
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#68

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:28 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:The majority of knots in my leaders are made in my backcast. I know because I have a strong habbit of looking at my backcast. And I can tell when I have to undo a windknot
Hi Lasse,
what is the cause for tying these knots in your back casts?

I'd put my money that highest percentage of wind knots is done during the end of the delievery shoot when the leader does not unroll into a straight position, but instead partially (or totally) piles up.
When I cast on grass, I don't get wind knots as long as I focus on controlled casting (good loop control, keeping up line tension always) and not aiming for highest possible distance. This is when I can controll my leader to land straight.
As soon as I switch over to distance casting (especially on windless days) I can't control to put the leader down straight on my highest distance (using a fluff and a standard monofilament leader). It's exactly here, where wind knots come in fast.
Thanks
Bernd
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#69

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:51 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote:
Lasse Karlsson wrote:The majority of knots in my leaders are made in my backcast. I know because I have a strong habbit of looking at my backcast. And I can tell when I have to undo a windknot
Hi Lasse,
what is the cause for tying these knots in your back casts?
Root cause is a tail.
I'd put my money that highest percentage of wind knots is done during the end of the delievery shoot when the leader does not unroll into a straight position, but instead partially (or totally) piles up.
When I cast on grass, I don't get wind knots as long as I focus on controlled casting (good loop control, keeping up line tension always) and not aiming for highest possible distance. This is when I can controll my leader to land straight.
As soon as I switch over to distance casting (especially on windless days) I can't control to put the leader down straight on my highest distance (using a fluff and a standard monofilament leader). It's exactly here, where wind knots come in fast.
Thanks
Bernd
How much money are we talking about?

And you should consider to stretching your leader before practicing :p

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Lasse
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#70

Post by James9118 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:23 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote:p.s.: Shall we open another thread since we are now years off-topic? :ninja:
I initially wanted to talk about the release point for casting a shooting head on a double hander - didn't even make it through the first page :D .

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