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Mechanics of the Haul

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JimC
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:22 pm

Mechanics of the Haul

Mechanics of the haul

OK Guys, Here is another idea that has been dancing around in my head on which I would like your thoughts.

First, let me set the stage so I’ll have a model to compare with and please don't nit-pick me on the technical terminology.

On a typical forward cast the rod hand moves forward, without rotation, at almost constant velocity, (granted there is some acceleration going from a dead stop to the forward hand velocity). Let us call this Stage One. Any tip acceleration during this part of the stroke it is relatively small compared to what happens next. During this motion the line wiggles are removed and the rod is loaded. Next the rod hand is rotated and the tip receives a big dose of acceleration. Let us call this rotation, Stage Two.

Now let's go the haul motion. In most of the casting videos it appears that haul starts with the arm bent at the elbow and the forearm is about horizontal across the caster's face. From this position the haul is made in one motion by straightening the arm and swinging the hand down to the hip. Now it would seem that with this motion there is an initial acceleration until the arm is straight, after which the hand velocity is constant (shoulder swing only with no further acceleration) until the hand reaches its final position.

And now my question. Wouldn't you get a more sustained acceleration of your haul if you copied the same stages that were used for your rod hand? For example:

Stage One - the elbow remains bent as the upper arm swings down from the shoulder. Followed by Stage Two - the lower arm is rotated from the elbow providing continued acceleration followed by a snap of the wrist at the very end.

Looking at this from another perspective, it has always been obvious that the speed of motion of joints and limbs increases, as they are located further for the abdomen. Stated another way - Smaller muscles and joints react faster than the larger ones.
JimC
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:22 pm

Mechanics of the Haul

Please delete this post. I found too many typos
JimC
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:22 pm

Mechanics of the Haul

Opps - This post is OK

It was the prior post with the same topic which has now disappeared.
Paul Arden
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Location: Belum Rainforest
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Mechanics of the Haul

Hi Jim,

I disagree with 1. But I absolutely agree with you on point two and I believe the haul you describe is a fault.

With regards one, I think we use translation at the beginning of the stroke to straighten the tip path and then try to cast distance with an increasing rate of acceleration.

With regards 2, yes absolutely and you should try that hauling hand and rod hand finish exactly opposite and not truncated to your hip on the forward cast. A very common fault that I see is for the caster to return his hauling hand to the rod hand during the backcast/forward cast transition which straightens the elbow joint and leads to the swinging motion you describe.

When I fixed that problem I had timing issues because my haul was ending too soon. I remember working on this on a drive through the USA. There is a good 10 feet distance to be had in solving this problem.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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JimC
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:22 pm

Mechanics of the Haul

Paul,

To quote from an old Steve McQueen movie, " What we have here is a failure to communicate."

I only tried to describe motion of the rod hand to use it as a model in later discussion.

Acceleration is the rate of increasing velocity, but "increasing rate of acceleration"?? Can the human body really do this?

You state - " to return his hauling hand to the rod hand during the backcast/forward cast transition which straightens the elbow joint and leads to the swinging motion you describe."

At the end of a backcast my rod hand will be in the proximity of my ear (unless I rotate my body and let it drift further rearward). With the rod hand next to my ear there is no way that I could bring my hands together with a straight elbow. It would be like touching my ear without bending my arm.

You use the phrase " truncated to your hip". I have not the slightest idea what you mean by that. The definition of "truncated' that I know doesn't apply.

We haven't really discussed the mechanics/motion of the hauling arm and hand. Let's keep talking.

Regards, Jim

Ps - How do you highlight quotes from prior a post?
Lasse Karlsson
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Mechanics of the Haul

JimC wrote:
And now my question. Wouldn't you get a more sustained acceleration of your haul if you copied the same stages that were used for your rod hand? For example:

Stage One - the elbow remains bent as the upper arm swings down from the shoulder. Followed by Stage Two - the lower arm is rotated from the elbow providing continued acceleration followed by a snap of the wrist at the very end.

Looking at this from another perspective, it has always been obvious that the speed of motion of joints and limbs increases, as they are located further for the abdomen. Stated another way - Smaller muscles and joints react faster than the larger ones.

Hi Jim

Instead of doing it as two seperate motions, do it as a continues flow, that way you will get the straightest haul, which is really what we are looking for after speed...

Cheers
Lasse

Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
Paul Arden
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Mechanics of the Haul

Hi Jim, you can use the quote button in the full editor to quote bits of text but I only do this normally on the Mac, too bloody complicated on the phone

Yes I think that we can increase our acceleration rate and that's been measured on one of my casts using the analyser. Trying to make constant acceleration would be much more challenging!

Ok straighter elbow if you are bringing your hands together this means that you've crossed your body with your hauling hand and this leads to a straighter elbow that if you are to keep it on its own side of the body. I worked out from where my fastest haul can occur and use that as my starting position.

Many people haul to their hip as opposed to finishing behind their body. For comp distance I always teach to finish with the hands as far apart as possible. So finishing at the hip is to make the haul much shorter than the space available.

Cheers Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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gordonjudd
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Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:36 pm
Location: Southern California

Mechanics of the Haul

that way you will get the straightest haul, which is really what we are looking for after speed...
Lasse,
What do you mean by "straightest haul" and why would you prefer a straight haul path over a curved one?

t would seem to me that the speed increase of the line outside the tip would depend on the distance between the first guide and the hauling hand but I don't see how straight the path the hauling hand follows would impact that distance.

Here is the path of your hauling hand in that video. It does not look straight to me, so I don't think I understand what you mean by "straightest haul".

Gordy
Lasse Karlsson
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Mechanics of the Haul

Hi Gordy

What gives the highest velocity, in the line, a curved almost circular haul or a as straight as possible one?
i might achieve highest velocity of my hand in the curve, but the last part of it will not move the line very much. The straightest one will move the line more at the end.

Think of the distance between the last guide and the hand as a tangent to the curved haul, if it's almost circular it becomes obvious that the distance decreases after the apex of the curve where it should be increasing, or we would need to move extremely fast.

And my hand path and the actual haul in the clip are two different things, much like the tippath and when it is actually speeding up the line in the intended direction and when it's not.

Cheers
Lasse

Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
Paul Arden
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Mechanics of the Haul

I would actually agree with Lasse, but for a whole different reason, because he's usually wrong anyway. I *think* where Lasse is, is by trying to straighten his haul he's found more speed, not because straighter means more speed because it obviously doesn't, but because that's how our bodies work best to give greater acceleration.

For example, Lasse could very easily make a distinct C-curve with his hand by hauling with a straight elbow, but then he loses the acceleration gained from the straightening of the elbow.

I would also argue that the haul truly begins from the frame you've marked Gordy (and from then on it is fairly straight). I'm guessing that he hasn't even though about hauling until this point. I know I don't!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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