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How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

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Bernd Ziesche
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How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

#31

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:34 am

Lasse Karlsson wrote: Damn physics, never works the same in different places on our flat earth :D
:D :p
Morsie wrote:You do get to a certain point in your casting where even with a ridiculously narrow arc you won't throw tails, because you have learned to accelerate appropriately. Doesn't work for 99% of the casting population though.
Lasse,
I agree with you. Also Morsie has made a fine point here, that I agree with.

Maybe we can all agree, that we mostly get students, who of course can't create the same level of line speed within just the size of arc, that still does it for the expert caster. Now the student's arc wouldn't be too small in general, but making it hard (for the student) to comfortable control smoothness for creating the desired line speed.

I think, we are nearly on the same page here and all have made good points based on teaching experience!?
Regards
Bernd
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The first cast is always the best cast.

Morsie
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How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

#32

Post by Morsie » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:56 am

Physics is the same everywhere, casting abilities aren't. I would have thought that was blindingly obvious. :???:

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Bernd Ziesche
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How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

#33

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:50 pm

https://vimeo.com/60482492

Here I filmed a student of mine, when entering my lesson (pre teaching, never had a lesson before).
He was moving the rod back and forth between 10 and 14. For the back cast he was using the hole arc to accelerate the line post unrolling of each forward cast. For the forward cast he was early rotating the rod forward during unrolling. He started his line hand pull when his back cast was unrolled. At the same time he had an arc left between 10 and 12:30 (max 13 sometimes). Still 10 to 12:30 was enough for him to stay smooth enough both with the rod hand and the line hand. His forward loops were pretty small and proper tensioned. Nothing to complain about the forward loops. He did not know about his early forward rotation during unrolling.
For me this was creep and did not lead into a too uneven force application, because the caster was able to smoothly hit the desired line speed within both the 10 to 14 arc in the bc and the 10 to 12:30 arc in the fc.
The rod tip around max rod bend never came close to hit SLP and was quite far from ever dipping below SLP.

I had many students entering the lesson with significant less early forward rotation (having additional arc left though), but ending up in a too uneven force application in the forward cast. Clearly I never had to kill the early rotation before getting rid of the tailing issues but first of all help to smoothen out the rotation.

Back to the topic...
If a too narrow arc would cause a tailing loop, is there a video of someone demonstrating such a cast?
Again, I have plenty, but they all include a too uneven force application causing the tail.
Cheers
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

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Graeme H
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How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

#34

Post by Graeme H » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:39 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote: Back to the topic...
If a too narrow arc would cause a tailing loop, is there a video of someone demonstrating such a cast?
Again, I have plenty, but they all include a too uneven force application causing the tail.
Cheers
Bernd
Well, that's what I'd expect Berndt. The only way to get the required line speed to reach the target from a casting arc/stroke that is too short is to accelerate too hard. That's the reason a narrow casting arc produces a tail: it mandates the incorrect application of force.

Cheers,
Graeme
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How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

#35

Post by Geenomad » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:22 am

Graeme H wrote: The only way to get the required line speed to reach the target from a casting arc/stroke that is too short is to accelerate too hard. That's the reason a narrow casting arc produces a tail: it mandates the incorrect application of force.
G'day Graeme
I'm with you here, obviously, and especially while we stay in the relative universe of "too short" and "too hard". Not quite so sure about mandates in casting, however. :)

In this thread the usual context and perspective problems are played out. Someone mentions the wood and a dissenter turns to the trees for inspiration. Eventually we might digress to a debate about the molecular structure of cellulose. :D

What we are talking about here, well the contingent from Oz anyway, is a strong tendency to produce tails by using too short an arc and having to punch the FC to compensate. (Slack btw, can generate similar outcomes.) But what else are we implicitly assuming here? No hauls, no shoots?

Back to using a 40' stroke for a 60' cast. I'm guessing this is commonly a case of trying to bully the stroke arc for a medium cast into making a long cast. Medium and long, of course, are relative terms and quantitatively vary between casters of varying ability.

Sixty feet are 50% more than forty. Let's consider a wider range of casts with the same proportional differences and assume a 5wt combo, no hauls and maybe no shoots either.
  • 30' stroke for a 45'cast
    50' stroke for a 75'cast
    60' stroke for a 90' cast
    70' stroke for a 105 cast'
As we proceed through the list the underlying problem emerges ever more clearly. Many casters could fudge a 45' cast from a 30' stroke. I defy anyone to cast 105' using a 70' stroke arc, sans hauls and shoots. Gosh. Seems like the general rule applies after all. Exceptional technique might buy you some grace but eventually the exception is overrun by the general rule. A classic case of the exception proving the rule rather than disproving it.

Leaving the world of possibilities and returning briefly to planet probability. Sixty feet away is the target for a covering cast. Skinny water, nervous fish. One shot deal. Two false casts would be a generous allowance. Hauls and shoots permitted. Let's assume 60' is well within the comfort zone of the caster. Who in their right mind would use a 40' stroke for a 60' cover? When exactly, in a fishing context, would it be otherwise? Paul, your snakehead deal might be an exception. Any others?

Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com

Morsie
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How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

#36

Post by Morsie » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:35 am

And the uneven application of force is because the arc is too narrow for the caster's ability to apply the required force smoothly.............. But of course many casters, even with sufficient arc also have a poor acceleration. Is it easier to teach someone who is throwing tails as a consequence of a poor acceleration caused by too narrow an arc, to open their arc up and smooth out their acceleration over a longer stroke (where they have more time), or to try and get them to smooth out their acceleration through a very narrow arc? I think its better to open the arc up. Its hair splitting and every student is different, we need to read it. As you know, very student is very different, but there are common broad problems.
Leaving the world of possibilities and returning briefly to planet probability. Sixty feet away is the target for a covering cast. Skinny water, nervous fish. One shot deal. Two false casts would be a generous allowance. Hauls and shoots permitted. Let's assume 60' is well within the comfort zone of the caster. Who in their right mind would use a 40' stroke for a 60' cover? When exactly, in a fishing context, would it be otherwise? Paul, your snakehead deal might be an exception. Any others?
Anyone with buck fever. I heard a story of a widely celebrated casting technician who went to pieces recently when confronted with schools of surface breaking tuna for the first time. Last cast syndrome, two perfect false casts and this is the one - a rushed forward cast (creep) and a tail results - in the real world, not the world of fly casting forums but the world of fishing out on the water in the wind with a heavy fly not a piece of fluff, its as common as the sun coming up each day. Experience gives you ice in the veins and the ability to hold it together in front of fish. Amateurs practise until the get it right, professionals practise until they can't get it wrong.

Morsie
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How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

#37

Post by Morsie » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:32 am

So Bernd using your clip from above I'll bet you a pint of best German beer against a pint of best Australian beer that if you extended the student's line by 15 feet the result would be tailing loops on the fc. And I hope we can get together some time for me to drink your beer. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

And Bernd I missed your post number 30 on the previous page when I logged in this morning. We are talking about the same thing re arc and acceleration.

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Bernd Ziesche
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How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

#38

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:00 am

Morsie wrote:So Bernd using your clip from above I'll bet you a pint of best German beer against a pint of best Australian beer that if you extended the student's line by 15 feet the result would be tailing loops on the fc. And I hope we can get together some time for me to drink your beer. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Hi Morsie :D
I wouldn't take that bet, because you could very well be right about a tailing loop to come in. :yeahhh:
Assuming someone would want to take your bet, I also wouldn't take your part of the bet though, because it also could happen, that the caster would just run out of appropriate line speed at some point, while still keeping smooth enough acceleration. As you said, students are all different and there are a lot of things that may happen next.

About the best German beer, I'll bring you a few, whenever I'll make it to the island! :blush:

Most importantly we are all on the same page about how to correct each of the different casting issues. We too agree about one issue causing the next one.

Definitions though have always been a very difficult part between fly casting instructors. :p

I often have students, who enter the lesson with improper positioning of the rotation. For example they position their rotation along the hole stroke and then in addition typically use a relatively wide arc. So they get too open loops making it hard to wait for the line to unroll. Compensating these issues very likely may be done by starting the next cast a bit early + using extra force. All of these issues easily may support a too sudden burst of power application near the end of each cast as well.
What would be the cause for the tailing loop?
Would it be the improper positioning of the rotation, the relatively wide arc, the bad timing, the over forcing of the hole cast? For me this is a no. It still would be the too uneven force application at the end.
All other issues could be done without causing a tailing loop and the tailing loop could also be done without any of these issues but just the last one.
For me it's same with the too narrow casting arc (not matching the student's abilities) supporting the too uneven force application.

I think, Lasse has made a fair point
Lasse Karlsson wrote:Cool, so if you're good, casting arc isn't the fault, if you're not, it is... Gotcha!
Regards
Bernd

About the clip from above... first step I asked the student to change, was to keep the hole arc while waiting for the line to unroll. https://vimeo.com/60783284
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Graeme H
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How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

#39

Post by Graeme H » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:17 am

Don't do it Bernd: it's a trap! A pint of the best German beer is worth a dozen of the best Aussie beers .... You can't "win" this bet. :pirate:
IFFF CCI

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How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

#40

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:28 am

Graeme H wrote:The only way to get the required line speed to reach the target from a casting arc/stroke that is too short is to accelerate too hard. That's the reason a narrow casting arc produces a tail: it mandates the incorrect application of force.
Hi Graeme,
I could help the student to reduce force application making it easier to keep smoothness. I would do that while reducing the length of line. Lengthening the line again while keeping the narrow arc the student may just run out of appropriate line speed afterwards. No tail. I then could teach him to increase force application while still managing to keep it smooth enough. In the end he might be able to master the narrow arc for the desired line speed. I agree that opening the arc a bit most likely would be my quick first step to support smoothening out the acceleration. But very likely I could just ask to open the arc and the tailing would still be there based on his muscles remembering the too sudden burst of force application. In my point of view this means the too narrow arc wasn't causing the tail, but the too uneven force application was.
Definitions... always causing headaches (as probably does the Australian beer) :)
Regards
Bernd
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The first cast is always the best cast.

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