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overloading

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Paul Arden
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Re: overloading

#51

Post by Paul Arden »

Spot on Graeme. That’s my conclusion too.

I must have some videos on SL to compare tip path heights. I’ll have a look later.

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Graeme H
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Re: overloading

#52

Post by Graeme H »

And the weights of the HT6 and HT10 rods I own ...

HT6 with and without butt section (where most of the weight is):
IMG_3891.JPG
IMG_3891.JPG (75.41 KiB) Viewed 2852 times
IMG_3887.JPG
IMG_3887.JPG (76.98 KiB) Viewed 2852 times
FFi CCI
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Graeme H
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Re: overloading

#53

Post by Graeme H »

The HT10:
IMG_3888.JPG
IMG_3888.JPG (80.24 KiB) Viewed 2851 times
IMG_3890.JPG
IMG_3890.JPG (76.97 KiB) Viewed 2851 times
So where the mass being rotated is most felt, there is 7 grams difference.

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Graeme
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Paul Arden
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Re: overloading

#54

Post by Paul Arden »

My HT10 is in the boat. I think the only way to determine frequency is with a frequency test. Ie locking the rod butt horizontal, pulling the tip down and measuring how many times it vibrates per second. With CCS Bill added weight to the tip to make it measurable by eye, however with an iPhone camera you can film at 240fps.

Magnus is correct, the 10 won’t necessarily have a higher frequency than the 6. It certainly “feels” faster with a 5 line but I’m not sure what that says. What I really need to do is to stand on that log again and cast both rods with the same carry and film the loop. However the log has gone!

What I strongly disagree with is that rods can’t be broken with casting! They most certainly can - low modulus rods very difficult, but high modulus rods are not so difficult at all. We’ve had rather a few breakages of the V2 in Italy. Those guys are slamming the rod. I haven’t broken a 10 but I broke a 6 under the handle with the cradle grip and a 7’6 3/4 prototype trying to carry 90’ of DT4.

Helios rods are a very good example. Beautiful casting/fishing rods, but 170 and they break. I’ve broken 5 of them in about 90 minutes casting. Two were brand new. The others were Ben Dixon’s. One of the new ones I put my thumb through the cork and broke the blank on my third cast!

In fact I’m now very very careful before I 170 a rod. I ask if it’s ok to break it. I’ve lost count of the number of rods I’ve broken.

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: overloading

#55

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

I doubt anybody will claim Its impossible to break a rod casting it, most of us have done it or watched it happen, mostly it has also been defects in rod or technique that has caused it, and so far I haven't experienced a heavier line causing it, though I know of a manufacturer that saya the warrenty is void if you overline their rods :D

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Paul Arden
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Re: overloading

#56

Post by Paul Arden »

It actually has led to a conundrum for me. The 7’6 proto was a very nice rod indeed. I fished and cast it for around a year. Lovely rod. After exploding it I had another one build and also another one that was slightly faster in the butt. I’ve been sitting on the first for about three years and the faster one for about 9 months.

Normally I put rods into shootouts to find their weak points and then we strengthen them and repeat.

A 7’6 3/4 rod is for fishing tight little streams, most casts are around 10ft. 30ft would be a distance cast. Carrying 90ft of DT4 with a 170 stroke is simply not required. I’m sure that we can make such a rod but it won’t have the same finesse up tight.

It’s not the heavier line that is the problem but when you couple it with what we do in comp distance it’s puts enormous load on the rod.

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Merlin
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Re: overloading

#57

Post by Merlin »

Hi All

In my mind overloading can mean two things:

1) overlining,

2) in the case of glass rods which can ovalize, it is the perception that the carry is too large, the shaft ovalizes and consequently the rod response "vanishes". I do not think that this happens frequently with graphite rods.

I do not consider breakage for overloading, although this is an extreme form of it, this time more applicable to graphite than to glass.

The following has little to do with overloading:

The problem of optimizing one's outfit for a given line in competition (e.g. a MED #5) has already been the subject of a specific thread. Considering rods of the same family (e.g. HTs), the result depends on the caster's potential torque. A stronger caster can take some benefit from the stiffer rod. If the caster is limited by torque, then another rod can match his best performance. So both Paul and Lasse are right, because they are just different.

If we consider that the momentum of inertia of the HT6 and HT10 measured by Graeme, the difference is about 22% (38 grams versus 31 grams). And a rule of the thumb says that if torque is limited, then there could be a speed loss (without the haul) of about half of that: 11% when using the big rod; and this is not negligible. This is part of the problem mentioned above, tackle optimization.

Merlin
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James9118
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Re: overloading

#58

Post by James9118 »

'Torque limited' is falling into the trap that for distance maximum power is applied - I'm happy to be corrected, but I don't know a 'good' distance caster who uses anything like maximum power - you simply don't see the gritted teeth and grunts of exertion at casting comps as you do at other throwing events. Sure, we try and haul as fast as we can, but that's it as far as maxing out. Take another look at Paul's video - to me I see smoothness and control (albeit not to his usual standard :p ) rather than max input.

James
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Paul Arden
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Re: overloading

#59

Post by Paul Arden »

So maybe the advantage of the stiffer rod is not line speed but rather tip path, James?

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Merlin
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Re: overloading

#60

Post by Merlin »

The necessary coordination of the body likely creates a torque constrain, which might well be below the maximum torque that a caster can produce. That does not change the global picture when comparing rods, there is an optimum somewhere. Beside that, rotating above 900 deg/s needs a pretty high torque. We have little data to analyze on that point.

Merlin
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