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\|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

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John Waters
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#21

Post by John Waters » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:20 am

That's right Paul, my good friend Wlodek Targosz is the best technically correct distance caster I have ever seen and he has a similar description to your student who referred to dunking a basketball. Wlodek's description of the final wrist movement in a fly distance cast is like having a matchbox sit in the palm of your hand and then place it on a shelf. I am not sure if Mel Krieger used the term "slinging" but it best describes the body centric technique for casting in which all rod translation is sourced to body rotation.

Keep slingin'

John

nicholasfmoore
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#22

Post by nicholasfmoore » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:32 am

Hi all,

Sorry for the delay, i was reading your very interesting replies to my questions! It is such a fascinating subject (well, for me at least) and it's fascinating to hear about the psychological aspects, as well as what we are "really" doing. For example, if i think to myself "cast straight up into the air like a rocket" i get a good back cast. Now, as Paul says, an analogy can help or hinder someone. I know for me that Mel's description of a "pull through stroke" was quite literally a life changer for me, especially when he mentioned "drift back and....PULL IT THROUGH!!!"

Has anyone seen Mel's "faults and fixes" DVD? This was very hard to get in the UK, but it's a fantastic resource, especially when he uses his analogies and descriptions. One of my favourites was when he was describing someone applying the force way too early in the stroke for a distance cast, he used the phrase "The longer the stroke, the more U's in whump, you've got to stay with it all the way" to maintain rod bend, or even thinking about his very famous phrase "WHUUUUUMP!". Now, this sounds simple, and it is. But it works incredibly well! :sorcerer:

Also in his video, he describes a "push through and a pull through" stroke. The push through stroke features early rotation, and his pull through stroke features late rotation or \\\\|/. Of course it's easy to over analyse, and this is what i've done. Seeing it written down for me is incredibly confusing, but hearing it is another story.

I think he did, Paul. Certainly in his video he says "once the rod is bent, you can sling the line forwards" for people that 'hit' the cast too early. I really like this description.

If i'm side casting, the back cast feels like i'm throwing a Frisbee, on the forward cast it's the same feeling, but telling a right hander to throw a frisbee forwards (with a forward cast) feels weird. I like Mel's rope analogy of trying to hit a board as hard as you could with the end of the rope, if you 'poked' it forwards you wouldn't get much effect, but if you 'pulled it forwards, it could almost break the board.

I do think it just comes down to over analysing, for me at least. Interesting that Steve has changed his ideas on rotation. I think everybody evolves as a caster, i certainly don't cast the same as i did 10 years ago :p

That's a great question, James. Actually, i did film myself to see what was actually going on, i 'think' rotate as late as possible, but i am rotating through the stroke. :cool: I really do think this is more of a psychological aspect. Not sure what you mean by 'spoon casting', although i do cast in the mirror with the accelerator click stick contraption, much to the displeasure of the inhabitants of the household. It must be easier on me because i'm making the noise :whistle:

Thank's for all your responses, it has been quite a revelation!

All the best

Nick
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Paul Arden
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#23

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:57 am

Yep I thought it was “slinging the line”, and in Mel’s case is not a description of the body movement.

I tell you what has been really good for me teaching, is asking the students to bend their knees. It’s something all good casters I watch do naturally. However lots of less accomplished casters appear to cast very straight legs and rather rigidly. I liken it to standing on a snowboard with a low centre of gravity. If you have bent knees you are more stable, can shift weight and the cast can begin from low down in the body and not originating from the movement of the hand. This simple request often can transform a caster - it’s most important in distance and longer shots of course. (For accuracy targets I sometimes cast on my tip toes but that’s something else again :laugh:)

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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nicholasfmoore
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#24

Post by nicholasfmoore » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:43 pm

I like that, Paul!

All the best

Nick
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

nicholasfmoore
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#25

Post by nicholasfmoore » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:13 pm

Speaking of Mel, i was cleaning out a book shelf today and i remembered that his wife sent me this last year, the Krieger enterprise badge that featured on his waistcoat, thought you would be interested. I also have 2(!) signed books from him as well. :cool:
Mel K badge 1.jpg
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

John Waters
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#26

Post by John Waters » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:07 am

Posted this in the wrong thread, apologies.

You are correct Paul, it is about slinging the body, not the line. Also agree with your comment about lowering your centre of gravity at the start of the forward stroke through the back leg.

It all comes down to what the body does. Pity mine won't do as it is told haha.

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#27

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:17 pm

Completely agree with you, John. At its simplest I see distance casting as trying to track as straight and vertical as possible while utilising the natural “kinetic whip” of the body. I’m of the opinion that rod tip path comes first and the body has to be constrained slightly so that the hand tracks straight. But in essence this (and hauling) is what it’s all about. Easy to write. Bloody hard to accomplish!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Bianchetti Ivan
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#28

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:30 am

My idea is, the more the tool you use is elastic, the sooner you can rotate and he will follow you, I have no tests, only sensations🤔
Ivan

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Zhongxiang
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#29

Post by Zhongxiang » Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:58 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:45 am
What interests me is the second part of the rotation, which I think is probably the most important part, where we “hit it” as hard as possible through a curve, I think is best made without push/thrust/ additional stroke length.
However I do feel that from MCL to RSP the shorter the distance we can move our hand the higher the line speed. When I’m really in the groove it feels like clicking my fingers at the very end of the stroke.

Cheers, Paul
Totally agree with you Paul. It's really the rotation after MCL without adding stroke length. What I feel is keep it slow until the butt just past perpendicular then it's a coordination of rotation through a inclined path of hand.
If save the rotation at the end but hit early in the first half it will promote tail as Steve's video demonstrates. Anyway, I have finally got it now you guys better watch out :pirate:
Cheers
TC

askel
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#30

Post by askel » Mon May 04, 2020 6:06 pm

Great! First it was that SLP is not really that straight. And now all that late rotation turns out to be an even more of a fairy tail.

It feels like I'd be a better caster by now if I didn't buy all those DVD's, online instructional materials and didn't watch those free youtube, vimeo, sexyloops videos. They slowed me down by keeping me confused all the time :D

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