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Double Haul increasing rod flex?

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Paul Arden
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#21

Post by Paul Arden » Sun May 17, 2020 9:26 am

Thanks Merlin, if there is a regarding force in the unloading rod to RSP would it not also result in less counterflex?

Thanks, Paul
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nicholasfmoore
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#22

Post by nicholasfmoore » Sun May 17, 2020 4:40 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 5:56 am
Well I don’t think it is hauling at the stop anymore, although that’s certainly what I wrote 20 years ago on that video. That was before stopless however! Now it’s hauling after the perpendicular.

Anyway I teach to time the haul with the stroke at the very beginning and then quickly move to a later haul timing usually within about 5 minutes. The first challenge is to get four movements instead of two ie down up down up and then I can tweak the timing.

I have tried teaching a later haul right from the outset but a few times it failed and I actually had to teach the haul timing to be through the stroke and then bring it back to being late again. (And that’s just a teaching disaster :D ).

I also tried teaching the haul right at the very beginning when first teaching someone to cast because Jon Allen told me he was getting some results with this. Well that didn’t work for me either :laugh:

Sometimes I’m amazed that we actually get paid for this. I do tend to restrict my most radical experiments (like that last one) to be on friends however!

Cheers, Paul
Interesting notes, Paul. Do you still tell students to think of hauling at the stop if they still haul far too early? I very much like your approach of teaching the haul to start with the start of the stroke, then moving onto the later timing. Do you tell them to haul when you rotate at the end of the stroke? Seems to work well with the triangle method. Don't know if you teach this too? :)

Haha, yes! :laugh:

All the best
Nick M

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#23

Post by Merlin » Sun May 17, 2020 6:41 pm

Paul

The trend is the following: the counterflex diminishes as you haul later and later. Maximum speed does not necessarily correspond to the latest haul, but to the earliest timing corresponding to a no tail tip path. Since it is safer not to be too close to the "tailing area" for haul timing, one should haul "late enough" to stay on the safe side, even if it costs a small loss in speed. The counterpart is a smaller counterflex, fair enough. The order of magnitude is a variation of let's say minimum 10% in counterflex in between extremes.

Merlin
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#24

Post by Paul Arden » Mon May 18, 2020 2:04 am

Hi Merlin,

It’s interesting how the balance point changes between competition and fishing casting. In fishing I cast more conservatively trying to avoid tails and tangles, whereas in competition I actively seek the line between tails and a good cast, and in order to do so, I throw tails! I do this with adjusting both force application and trajectories. And that’s because I think there is a very fine line between the optimal cast and a tailing wave.

But I suppose that’s like all sport. In race car driving for example there is a very fine line between staying on the road and driving through a hedge :cool: In table tennis clipping the edge of the table and missing altogether, in long jump taking off from the very end of the platform or toe over the line... ok I can apply this analogy to almost everything I should think :D Anyway the point is that I think the optimal distance technique lies just inside the tailing loop border.

Hi Nick, no I teach the haul beginning at rod perpendicular or later. And it’s easy to see and teach that with Lee’s Triangle Method. I do teach the hard stop but by the time I’m getting to distance I’m already trying to unteach it and having the haul tied to the stop is going to make that more difficult.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#25

Post by nicholasfmoore » Tue May 19, 2020 9:17 pm

Hi Nick, no I teach the haul beginning at rod perpendicular or later. And it’s easy to see and teach that with Lee’s Triangle Method. I do teach the hard stop but by the time I’m getting to distance I’m already trying to unteach it and having the haul tied to the stop is going to make that more difficult.
Thank you, Paul. That is crystal clear, i'm totally with you on the stop for distance.

All the best!
Nick M

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#26

Post by Dirk le Roux » Thu May 21, 2020 6:28 pm

Merlin wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 3:19 am
Sorry Mike, the rod bends backwards, not forwards, during the haul.
Haul induced bend is in the direction the line is situated relative to the rod tip during the haul. So, Mike's example fits well with either an early haul during backcast unrolling or a late haul during forward cast unrolling. :upside:

Cheers, Dirk

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#27

Post by gordonjudd » Fri May 22, 2020 2:51 pm

So, Mike's example fits well with either an early haul during back cast unrolling or a late haul during forward cast unrolling.
Dirk,
We agree on the direction of the bend produced by haul on the backcast. The haul velocity on the back cast is dominated by the rotation of the rod so its max velocity is typically forced to happen before RSP on a backcast. However I don't think you would produce a forward bend from the haul on the forward cast.

My understanding is that the extra bend comes from the equal and opposite force that an accelerating line mass applies to the rod tip.

Thus to get an additional forward bend of the rod due to the haul would required that the haul velocity is still accelerating after RSP.

We would need some additional measurements of haul velocity timing to see if expert casters actually reach their max haul acceleration after RSP. That could happen for some casters but I have yet to see it.

In this example] of Lasse's forward cast his max haul velocity (= time where the haul acceleration is zero) was about 50 ms before RSP. Thus his max acceleration occurred well before RSP. Paul's max haul timing was even sooner, i.e., near MCL.


Gordy

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#28

Post by Michal Duzynski » Fri May 22, 2020 6:30 pm

gordonjudd wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:51 pm
So, Mike's example fits well with either an early haul during back cast unrolling or a late haul during forward cast unrolling.
Dirk,
We agree on the direction of the bend produced by haul on the backcast. The haul velocity on the back cast is dominated by the rotation of the rod so its max velocity is typically forced to happen before RSP on a backcast. However I don't think you would produce a forward bend from the haul on the forward cast.


Gordy
Hi there
I was just trying to explain some tailing loop issue to my friends, and one of the causes of tailing loop was FINISHING HAUL TOO SOON.
Tailing loop- concave path of the rod tip-tip unbending too soon.
...so how does the haul works on the rod tip if it unbends too quick?
mike

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#29

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri May 22, 2020 7:46 pm

If you finish hauling too soon, ie. Before the rodtip passes the point where it no longer will go through the intended path for the line. The line will be traveling faster than the rodtip, so it will be free to unbend. This doesnt really cause a tail though... its the sudden early jerk of a haul in a weak cast that will create the tailing loop wave.
Honestly, its one of the hardest ways of doing real tails, and I cant say its something I've encountered in teaching... seen lots of instructors trying to demo it, never seen one succed....

Cheers
Lasse

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#30

Post by Dirk le Roux » Fri May 22, 2020 10:32 pm

The rod can easily be made to bend forward, wherever that may be, by hauling. Especially if you go outside the box and haul after the forward stroke, during the pause, rod settled, line unrolling (read again). How about at line straight?

Come to think of it, if we are pedantic about fore and aft, the only time a haul induced bend will be backward is when line extends "rearward" from the rod tip.

Regards,
Dirk

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