Paul and Nick

[NM]

I agree fully John.
Feel is an essential and powerful feedback mechanism, and not only for learning but also for optimal performance in most sports, and maybe particularly in fly casting. Optimal performance in sport is not just about the mechanics of the movements. Subtle changes in force input can have a significant impact. In most sports the best seems to have a particular feel for what they are doing. The best skiers for example can feel subtle differences in snow conditions and adjust the force they put on the ski edges accordingly.

Feel is of course personal and related to multiple aspects of the execution of the activity. In fly casting is both about your awareness of the body movements—the sequencing, stretch-release or body preloading generated through proximal to distal movement patterning in distance casting—and about the line and rod. Feeling how the line is pulling on the rod tip and whether there is proper contact, or slack, is essential for how to best start the FC and BC for example. That feeling, as well as the feeling of the rod bending (and unbending) as you accelerate provides feedback that we consciously, or unconsciously, use to make micro adjustments to the movement.

Yes, feeling require awareness, but the micro adjustments we make in response to the feedback it provides may not be something that we always are fully conscious about. For example, the feeling of how the line moves and of how the rod is bending in response to the force we are using is key to the micro adjustments we make when casting very different setups, e.g., moving from a stiff fast action 9 feet rod to say a slow 10-11 feet rod, or having a long carry with a short-headed WF line.

An essential part of all training is to develop that feel. You can teach some of it, I think, or at least make the student aware of what feeling to search for. One of the purposes of many drills is, I believe, to help the caster link what they feel to what they see. The choice of equipment can also help developing a feel for what’s going on. It is easier to feel the cast with a softer overlined rod than a fast action underlined rod, for example. That set up also require more of a feel of course. You can sometime tell whether a caster has a good feel for the equipment or not. For example, it is quite interesting to watch pure IFSCF Casting tournament casters that only practice with the stiff and heavy T38 and T-120 rods and lines, cast ordinary fishing equipment. The same goes for those that are only used to cast underlined fast action rods or heavy salt water equipment.

Nils

[nicholasfmoore]

Hi all,

Thank you! It was certainly a fun thing to do, even though it was difficult for me to get up, i think i joined at exactly 08:00

All the best

[nicholasfmoore]

Hi Lasse,

Seriously, listening to a talk about distance casting, and having false statements like "you can't shoot line into a headwind" "best fishing line is a DT, or long belly" etc. calls for some challenge, and since me stating things is never enough, a challenge goes a long way.

"It's very hard to shoot line into a very strong wind"

Best line imo for still waters in the UK is a long headed line as you are varying lengths from a rod length to around 90' using different techniques such as dries, streamers, nymphs, indicators and teams of flies. I've tried casting a washing line with the Rio SHS into a strong head wind with a stop less forward cast, and it is not great. A common leader length for a team of flies is about 20', and when i went for distance with this line, it didn't unroll properly and it crumpled at the end. However, with a long headed line or a double taper i can carry what i need and get it to unroll properly

What shooting head would you use to cast a team of 3 flies into a strong headwind, Lasse? I know you use them all the time, so i'd be interested to hear your thoughts and i will make one and try it

All the best

[Stoatstail50]

I believe "feel" is a powerful feedback mechanism for use during the conscience stage of learning casting

The number one feedback mechanism in casting is vision. Awareness of performance and result is overwhelmingly connected by what you see.

This is particularly true in the early stages of learning where instructors need to create visual feedback loops that allow a caster to verify that what they did, movement wise, delivered what they intended, output wise.

I was fishing on my own today, thigh deep in mud, panicking a bit about how I was going to get out…abjectly failing to get 80’-90’casts to unroll up the wind. I was really trying…and failing…and I’m supposed to have a clue what I’m doing…I can tell you what that feels like and what I’ve learned. I scared the shit out of myself.

I cannot tell you what it might feel like to do it right under those conditions, I can, however, tell you that it would be only be possible to verify a good cast if I could see that it landed straight up wind in front of the fish.

[Stoatstail50]

You can teach some of it, I think, or at least make the student aware of what feeling to search for.

What feeling should I have been searching for… ? I was over my knees in mud and my nuts are in the water…I cannot move my legs, the wind is in my face…I can see fish coming towards me off my left side…How would you teach me what to feel ?

[John Waters]

I believe "feel" is a powerful feedback mechanism for use during the conscience stage of learning casting

The number one feedback mechanism in casting is vision. Awareness of performance and result is overwhelmingly connected by what you see.

This is particularly true in the early stages of learning where instructors need to create visual feedback loops that allow a caster to verify that what they did, movement wise, delivered what they intended, output wise.

I was fishing on my own today, thigh deep in mud, panicking a bit about how I was going to get out…abjectly failing to get 80’-90’casts to unroll up the wind. I was really trying…and failing…and I’m supposed to have a clue what I’m doing…I can tell you what that feels like and what I’ve learned. I scared the shit out of myself.

I cannot tell you what it might feel like to do it right under those conditions, I can, however, tell you that it would be only be possible to verify a good cast if I could see that it landed straight up wind in front of the fish.

Hi Mark,

That is a frightening experience, have a few like that and it feels great when you're back on firm ground. Fishing certainly presents challenges, casting is but one.

John

[Phil Blackmar]

[/quote]
I was fishing on my own today, thigh deep in mud, panicking a bit about how I was going to get out…abjectly failing to get 80’-90’casts to unroll up the wind. I was really trying…and failing…and I’m supposed to have a clue what I’m doing…I can tell you what that feels like and what I’ve learned. I scared the shit out of myself.

I cannot tell you what it might feel like to do it right under those conditions, I can, however, tell you that it would be only be possible to verify a good cast if I could see that it landed straight up wind in front of the fish.
[/quote]

Hi Mark,

That is a frightening experience, have a few like that and it feels great when you're back on firm ground. Fishing certainly presents challenges, casting is but one.

John
[/quote]

I laid down on top of the mud and swam my way back to the boat one time....pleasant experience but once was enough.....

[VGB]

The “feel” that has been described in casting to date is the product of an action or a movement, not the cause. In itself it is neither good or bad and you can’t draw attention to what the correct feedback is until you get the correct input. Expert skiers may well be able to tell by feel what kind of snow they are on but that’s only because the complex motions that allow them to hurtle down the slopes at 140mph are being carried out autonomously as they have been learned and practiced this movement skill over a long period of time. Having bolted down the autonomous activity, it frees up mental capacity to focus attention on the finer detail but that is a long way down the road from teaching the skill in the first place.

[VGB]

Hi Lasse

Seriously, listening to a talk about distance casting, and having false statements like "you can't shoot line into a headwind" "best fishing line is a DT, or long belly" etc. calls for some challenge, and since me stating things is never enough, a challenge goes a long way.

I know but it was nice to be proven right so quickly, I was expecting some resistance

On a teaching note, what type of line do you think is good when teaching beginners using the triangle method?
"Brick on a string" or a DT?

I'm with Lee, but would like your oppinion

If a line is fit for purpose then I will use it for teaching, however, I won’t specify a particular line without good reason. Many casters turn up blaming their kit and I find that removing that as an excuse is essential but sometimes bitter pill for the student. For sure, some lines make casting easier, particularly overweight lines

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

The “feel” that has been described in casting to date is the product of an action or a movement, not the cause. In itself it is neither good or bad and you can’t draw attention to what the correct feedback is until you get the correct input. Expert skiers may well be able to tell by feel what kind of snow they are on but that’s only because the complex motions that allow them to hurtle down the slopes at 140mph are being carried out autonomously as they have been learned and practiced this movement skill over a long period of time. Having bolted down the autonomous activity, it frees up mental capacity to focus attention on the finer detail but that is a long way down the road from teaching the skill in the first place.

Hi Vince,

I've never said feel is not a cause, it is obviously the result of movement. You move, you feel the movement. My point is what the athlete and the coach do about that feel is important for learning movement and later in the learning lifecycle, further extension to that movement. One way of achieve the "correct input" and then succeed in "identifying what the correct feedback is" is by getting the athlete to experience the feel of the movement extension. That is best achieved, as I've posted before, by the instructor extending the movement for them. It's the same as rhythm, you can't see it but you can feel when it is right and when it is not right. Like feel, rhythm is a subjective term and is different to every athlete, but it is an essential of sport and can be trained for. Coaches interpret it as being different things but it like Dr. Mark Kovac's definition. He said rhythm is simply "how efficient your kinetic chain sequencing is". Movement chains apply across all sports; throwing, hitting, running, jumping and casting.The athlete knows when their individual, optimal rhythm is impeded, they "feel" it. Others can see it, the athlete feels it. A hurdler learns his or her optimal rhythm by consciously applying a constant stride length between hurdles, which in time, they apply unconsciously in hurdling events. It is the same with casting. Rhythm, or the synchronisation of multiple movements (Kovac), is "the product of an action or movement, not a cause", using your definition. If you feel rhythm when casting, or the lack thereof, is it not the same as feel in your definition? We use synchronisation of movements to transfer energy through the body chain and into the rod, ball, racquet, club, javelin, dart or whatever. I would suggest you feel it before you see its outcome. I would contend that an elite golfer could feel his "rhythm" and instantly judge its effectiveness on the downswing, before the ball left the tee. Sure he saw the ball in flight and used that vision as feedback but he also uses feel in that feedback loop.

IMHO, vision is important in learning, but so is hearing and feeling,

John