Further skills development

[John Waters]

Apologies Paul, a few incorrect autocorrects in my post 29.

It should be;

Hi Paul

Agree there are many unknowns in our sport. The what and how of movement range and sequencing (coordination) is yet to be exhausted. Fortunately, the what and how of instruction is now getting a focus. Carry is critical for MED performance because of its impact on line momentum, but that impact depends on hand speed as shown in the enhanced performance delivered through the 170 technique. Sag is reduced, the line is more taut and straighter at the start of the delivery stroke. You are absolutely correct about force and counter flex. When I started increasing hand speed that was a problem and I had to look at rod tip stiffness. As I've said in many posts, everything we do in casting depends on the performance objectives and rules of the event. Casting used in Recreational fishing is performed in a different environment to that of competition casting. Time involved, opportunity for success and performance deliverables have very different constraints in competition casting. The same differences exist in competition fishing vs recreational fishing. That's why in fishing the guideline of only using enough power to straighten the line and leader at your desired distance is valid. In competition, that is so limiting.

I agree, we do have to better understand the impact of what currently may seem to be competing determinants of performance. Angular velocity is a critical key performance indicator but it is dependent on linear velocity.

It's always fun to push the boundaries,

John

[Paul Arden]

Hi John,

Largely I see three things required for distance. 1 Carry 2 a great loop and 3 high line speed. If I was to add a fourth I would say trajectory.

Now of course we need them all but I think that the loop trumps line speed in terms of priority. I actually think that carry length is more important than line speed too. And that line speed that is generated from the haul is better than line speed developed from the rod.

The point about this is that they are all interlinked and generating line speed to the detriment of the loop for example will cost distance.

It’s very common that a distance caster throws longer in warm up with a soft cast than he does in the competition that follows. We all have casts that just seem to “float” out there.

Just a different way of looking at it. But it would be nice to have some actual numbers and not be working from perceived feel.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Hi Paul,

I agree with your 3 determinants of distance and we need to optimise all 3 in order to optimise distance. An interesting exercise in respect of mass vs velocity when I move from casting my 27 gram line to my 38 gram line and then my 55 gram line to my 120 gram line. I think the contribution to performance of the haul hand vs the rod hand is a great skill development opportunity for our sport. There has been some great information provided on Sexyloops about haul hand speed in recent years. The longest casts are often performed before or after competition, when the casting environment is different. I think that is sourced to how effectively we sequence the total casting movement pattern.

The more we look at things differently, the more we learn,

John

[Paul Arden]

Hi John,

I agree. It can be down to fluidity of movement. But I do find it fascinating how casts thrown with less force can often equal or even pass casts thrown at max speed. Undoubtedly trying to cast at 100% creates issues too. Particularly timing ones.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Hi John,

I agree. It can be down to fluidity of movement. But I do find it fascinating how casts thrown with less force can often equal or even pass casts thrown at max speed. Undoubtedly trying to cast at 100% creates issues too. Particularly timing ones.

Cheers, Paul

Yes Paul, how we sequence, coordinate or time the total movement is a major determinant of performance. I reckon that is the most obvious statement ever posted on Sexyloops, but it has not had the focus performance improvement requires. Some casts with less force do go further but the focus should not be on force as the causal issue, it should be on the improved sequencing those casts have. I think we should lock in the correct sequencing, then after that, start increasing speed.

With all deference to Newton's second law, I think it is speed we need, not force.

John

[Paul Arden]

Hi John,

Sequencing/pattern is obviously key. But I keep coming back to ever increasing hand speed, even assuming we maintain sequence. I genuinely don’t know that we want maximum rod speed.

What’s actually happening here is two things. 1) The separation of the hands contributes to the haul so yes there I would agree. 2) The rotation applied to the rod produces torque. So we are bending the rod, and usually still rotating in a distance cast as the rod is straightening.

Now apparently we put in rather a lot of force because some of us break rods but I wonder if we put in maximum force or if we are constrained by the speed of the haul?

The reason I question this is for two reasons. 1) I don’t think I’m putting in my maximum force . 2) theory comes next… the haul can control the rod unloading — a fast haul will retard the rod tip from straightening, potentially straightening the tip path.

I do believe that the faster I haul, the more force I can put into the cast and everything still works. But I also think, in some sleepless nights, that the amount of force I can put into the rod is limited by the speed I’m generating with the haul.

The only limiter on how fast we can haul is physical.

I’m not sure I’m explaining that very well. Hell I’m not even sure it’s right!

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Hi Paul,

The hands work together but I believe the respective hand speeds generated are largely independent even though both use the elbow as a key pivot.

John