Measuring the Haul

[Torsten]

Hi,

for the stuff related to practical casting / fishing better here -> viewtopic.php?t=4121&start=110

Walter,

If you prefer, feel free to move this topic and any other related ones I’ve started related to fly casting but if you decide to do that then please move all of them, not just this one.
WRT using multiple cameras that would be nice as would zebra lines but Gordy feels that with existing video he can get 90% or better accuracy. In the absence of anything better I’m okay with that.

I can move only within the physics board. I think Scientific Anglers had also a magnetized fly line and a sensor system, but I've found not the relevant paper - perhaps Gordy knows the source. As long as the rod and line hand move within (approx.) a plane the error from video analysis should be acceptable.

Greetings,
Torsten

[Bernd Ziesche]

What do you do if you are standing under a tree, is it the same?

Hi Vince,
Most likely I am fishing or watching fish.

I take it, you mean to ask how do I haul in the offshoulder cast, when tilting my rod plane further down to the off shoulder side.
I haul further to the other side then (down the rod). In the bc that's pretty "late" to get my line hand passing behind my body post coming from the front.
But as I said, in my view the off shoulder cast isn't the best idea. I hardly use it. The EFFA however is obsessed with that cast, because GF did a lot to keep his invention high in that organisation. When I was with the EFFA I trained the offshoulder cast (in different ways) a lot though. It never made it into my fishing.
The EFFA would fail Walter when not keeping the rod hand completely on the line hand side. But I agree with Walter, that is a none smart idea, because of the limits Walter described. Mel Krieger early on recommended to just bring over the rod tip. I like that!
Regards
B
Edit: ups, saw your last posting too late, Torsten.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Was there ever infrared techniques used for measurement? I remember Ludwig von Reim did for recovery speed of rod tips.
Could that not be done for hauling speed?
Or how about the technique used in boxing (and other) sports to measure hand speed?

[VGB]

Hi Bernd

What do you do if you are standing under a tree, is it the same?

Hi Vince,
Most likely I am fishing or watching fish.

I take it, you mean to ask how do I haul in the offshoulder cast, when tilting my rod plane further down to the off shoulder side.
I haul further to the other side then (down the rod). In the bc that's pretty "late" to get my line hand passing behind my body post coming from the front.
But as I said, in my view the off shoulder cast isn't the best idea. I hardly use it.

Yes, I thought putting the question in a real world context would be easier. “Hardly use it” is not never using it though.

I use variations of the off shoulder cast fairly often because it is better in fast moving water, when fish are hitting a dry almost immediately on presentation, or I want the best accuracy solution in constrained situations. If I want longer distance and expect sufficient time to be able to turn in the expected direction of the take, I will cast off the back hand. I hate fishing with my back to the fish.

The fishing constraints drive my casting solution and I will sacrifice the most efficient casting solution to get an effective outcome. The is no perfect in fly fishing

Regards

Vince

[Walter]

The EFFA would fail Walter when not keeping the rod hand completely on the line hand side. But I agree with Walter, that is a none smart idea, because of the limits Walter described. Mel Krieger early on recommended to just bring over the rod tip. I like that!

Sometimes I cast with my other hand or just turn around and present on my backcast. I’m guessing the effa frowns on that too.

[Paul Arden]

It’s a very useful skill being able to deliver backhand as comfortably and accurately as forehand. Particularly salt or snakehead. Most of my guests first time they come, can’t deliver backhand — which means they can only fish half the boat. I can of course sometimes turn the boat, and usually do, but there are times when the wind prevents this.

For me, close range is wrist and front facing, mid to long range is elbow driven and side facing. You need to be able to watch the target when delivering a shot off the backhand.

The backcast of a 170 I think is extremely useful for shot taking in the wind. It opens up the whole boat for shots and with training it’s as accurate as the forehand. And it’s arguably the best haul you’ll ever get!

Cheers, Paul

[Torsten]

Hi Walter,

off-topic:
just a quick comment, I agree with Paul that backhand casting is a very useful skill and it's of course important for my fishing (I'm actually surprised that Bernd doesn't need it). The EFFA differentiates between the backhanded cast and the back cast; I'd use the same terminology. And backhanded means for me that your casting with your rod hand over the opposite shoulder, e.g. left side of the body while facing the target for a right handed caster. Back(ward) casting is another task, that's when you're standing backward to the target (sideways to the target is somewhere in between). Their master requirement is 25m or 82ft. for both tasks (AFTTA#6 max) . For me are only their performance requirements interesting, as personal challenge, otherwise I don't care much about instructor certs. I've only heard that they fail 4 of 5 candidates for the basic instructor test. It's more a south German / Austria / Switzerland thing, in my region they are not very active.

Greetings,
Torsten

The EFFA would fail Walter when not keeping the rod hand completely on the line hand side. But I agree with Walter, that is a none smart idea, because of the limits Walter described. Mel Krieger early on recommended to just bring over the rod tip. I like that!

Sometimes I cast with my other hand or just turn around and present on my backcast. I’m guessing the effa frowns on that too.

[Paul Arden]

The haul analyzer was Noel’s creation. However it could only measure “medium” speed hauls according to Bruce. We probably have the technology available nowadays to build something more robust. That would be interesting!!

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

I'm quite sure Ulrik will have some data on haul speeds for competition casters. He has been doing measurements with multipel sensors attached around the body as well as on the rod.
And didn't Jason do some with the mocap system?

Cheers
Lasse

[Bernd Ziesche]

The EFFA would fail Walter when not keeping the rod hand completely on the line hand side. But I agree with Walter, that is a none smart idea, because of the limits Walter described. Mel Krieger early on recommended to just bring over the rod tip. I like that!

Sometimes I cast with my other hand or just turn around and present on my backcast. I’m guessing the effa frowns on that too.

Hi Walter,
When it comes to EFFA, GF was the main force to drive that organisation forward and develop the exam requirements. Since he wanted his powerhaul to become a famous technique, he set up a 25m back hand cast and fixed the ruls to mainly match exactly his technique. That's why several other techniques weren't accepted.
Torsten already described the requirements well.

For a distance cast (25m or more) most fly fishermen would struggle a lot with the EFFA requirements matching back hand cast. Instead I always saw much better results by using the back cast. In coastal Sea trout fishing we started to call it the beach cast. You can watch the chicks on the beach, while driving the fly to the fish as we used to say. That is what most use here. Almost never I see such a back hand cast.

Fun fact, the EFFA (GF) insisted, that the rod hand must be on the line hand side during the cast AND the palm of the rod hand must point in forward cast direction all the time, especially during the back cast. So I asked him, why then call it a back hand cast, when yet in all other sports back hand refers to the opposite: leading the movement with the backside of the hand. No answer of course.
Bringing the rod hand completely on the off shoulder side, then using the indexfinger on top causes quite a twist in the ellbow and shoulder joint. Fishing like that for 8 hours on distance is the last thing I'd ever recommend. It may well lead to injury/pain issues.

Torsten,
This doesn't mean I ever use an offshoulder cast. I do sometimes, but in an easy way. I bring my tip to the line hand side and use the cast on short to medium distance. Often I may turn my rod hand to some degree (palm to the side) in the back cast. That works very well, but in EFFA terms isn't a back hand cast. In other sports this is where the back hand motion just starts. Pretty missleading use of that term imo.
Regards
Bernd