Tracking and Loop planes

[VGB]

Well done Bernd, you took 3 yes/no questions and created a short story

My fly-legs most likely start a little to the outer side and then change direction to the inner side during unrolling of the loops. That means my unrolled line lands on the tape, while the fly-leg mostly moved outside the tape.

This is a long way of saying that a loop turns into a straight-ish line at the end of the cast, I don't think that is groundbreaking stuff

When casting in vertical rod plane (both rod and line along a vertical flat surface) gravity makes my line drop. So I compensate by a higher trajectory and also matching the level of speed. I don't see this as a systematic error. It's an impact, that I have to deal with until NASA will hear my prayers and let me in their no gravitation room.

External forces act on the line for sure but again not a shock.

Same for the "drift" in the horizontal cast.

I just spent 40 minutes in the field, it doesn't happen to me.

Some casters may hit such a target on 8m in a high percentage, IF the line length is pre fixed (after having matched it), yes. ]

Did you see that I did say "without competition constraints" here and on FB? It's a windless day and the task was so ridiculously easy that I tried cross body, horizontal plane and off the back hand and I saw no systemic errors and only the back hand was below 70%. I walked away from my aiming point and stripped in line between each attempt, The back hand cast needs practice, that's all.

I believe the rod-leg applies a force to the fly-leg.

We've known that for a very long time, it wasn't news when I arrived on the board 11 years ago.

Let's assume we never met. I am a total new student for you. What is tracking?

My student gets cues such as straight lines, circles, C shapes and Nike ticks. Planes and tracking don't figure in my standard lessons for the same reason I don't use Latin names for parts of the body, it's superfluous to the need to learn to cast, I save that guff for talking to other instructors. For long range accuracy, I have mentioned ballistic trajectories before on the basis that many of my students shoot as well as fish.

regards

Vince

[Lasse Karlsson]

Fun fact, when I provide one, for example Lasse tells me, it's the wrong perspective.

You need to get that chip on your shoulder checked mate

You provide a droneshot of a caster that has a default cast 50 degrees of vertical, and call it birds eye view and look at how they move the rod in a 8...
Birds eye has always been looking down on the rod tip to butt from straight above. But you do you!

Back to fishing, tada...

Lasse

[Bernd Ziesche]

Paul,
In the first drawing it seems what you call rod plane is flat, while your rod was moved along a curved surface.
When for you a plane can be curved, why you call the flat surface rod plane, when the rod was not moved in it?
I would have thought rod plane then was the curved rod surface, that you moved the rod in.

What I have learnt here in this thread: the term plane is not self explaining and may confuse.

Maybe I better use surface.
So there will be a flat surface and all kind of curved surfaces. Then I can differ between the intended surface to move the rod along and the deviation left and right.

I will not focus on tip path. That confuses too easily.
Looking on your drawing I may ask why your tip does not leave the flat tracking plane (stick out at some part). And if it would, then what is the tracking plane good for?

Maybe you want to draw the tracking plane (then surface) curved (in the typical side viewed tip path), so the tip does remain in it?

I really like how Nick put it. That to me covers it and cuts out all confusion.

[VGB]

I really like how Nick put it. That to me covers it and cuts out all confusion.

Have you tried teaching a curve cast using Nick’s definition?

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

Birds eye has always been looking down on the rod tip to butt from straight above.

Hi Lasse,
It's a "great" argument (being ironic), that you have ALWAYS used that term in a wrong way. This doesn't make it any more correct though.

You may have a look at how most others use it:

(in which case our bird looks down the rod, and not from directly above).

a general view from above

a view from a very high place that allows you to see a large area:
Climb to the top of the Eiffel Tower if you want a bird's eye view of Paris.

a view from a high angle as if seen by a bird in flight

looking at something from a high or elevated position.

A bird's-eye view is an elevated view of an object or location from a very steep viewing angle, creating a perspective as if the observer were a bird in flight looking downwards

I couldn't find a single definition to include a straight down (90 degree) angle.

That drone shot qualifies as bird view just fine.

Knaek og break
Bernd

[Bernd Ziesche]

I really like how Nick put it. That to me covers it and cuts out all confusion.

Have you tried teaching a curve cast using Nick’s definition?

Yes, Aitor's brilliant bridge slomo has proven many years ago:
In the overpowered curve cast I cast straight as possible (moving the rod along a flat surface), to then have a wave starting at the tip running down the line and into position. No rod movement along a curved path intended/needed.To give one example.

Can you link a single thread about the impact of the rod-leg pulling the fly-leg out of direction based on the distance between the tip at main launch area compared to the final pausing position?
I sure have missed it and can't remember that to have seen being discussed. So didn't Aitor (who usually seems to have read almost everything).
And here in this thread no one did link this to have been discussed before either.
What I do remember instead is, that Lasse as well as others said, that once main launch direction for the fly-leg is set, tip position to get pulled sideways has nearly no impact.
That means the force applied via rod-leg can't have any impact worth to talk about.

If that's correct, a video prove should be very easy.
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

And if it would, then what is the tracking plane good for?

Analysing tracking.

I’m sure you can form and overpower a horizontal curve with a close to vertical rod plane. How does that work?

[VGB]

Hi Bernd

Who were you teaching the curve cast to Aitor or the bridge?

cast straight as possible (moving the rod along a flat surface), to then have a wave starting at the tip

In your definition of tracking this was a perfectly good cast. In my definition of tracking this would be a fault if you did not intend to tail, but okay if you did intend to tail. Do you need to tail to get a curved lay out?

Can you link a single thread about the impact of the rod-leg pulling the fly-leg out of direction based on the distance between the tip at main launch area compared to the final pausing position?

Every thread that mentions rod/fly leg tension and angular momentum contains this possibility and I've never heard anyone say that rod leg tension has no effect on outcome, all of us have thrown a reach mend.

I couldn't find a single definition to include a straight down (90 degree) angle.

As I explained on FB yesterday, if you are not filming perpendicular to the plane of motion, you are introducing perception error. The simple test I provided was to tape together 2 rulers or pencils together at 90 degrees to each other in an X configuration. Rotate your X at arms length and you will notice that the apparent lengths of the arms will change, as will the angles between the arms.

regards

Vince

[VGB]

Hi Bernd

That drone shot qualifies as bird view just fine.

If you choose to use an angle other than 90 degrees, you need to conduct complex transformations to understand what you are looking at, otherwise you run the risk of being fooled by what you see.

regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

Paul,
I think to get what you mean. I am fine with it.

In my terms a plane is flat. I would want to move my rod along a curved surface to shape (I think you mean) the line into a horizontal curve. Since my rod bends and unbends within that curved rod path, the tip cannot move in a flat surface being in a 90 degree angle to that curved rod path. That would require a straight tip path and not a convex one.
A curved surface means I change the degree of drop off vertical permanently though. That is where looking at your drawing gets tricky for me, too.
Probably easier face to face.