Mental Practice

[VGB]

Of course we use many tools normally in parallel.

I was thinking about this last night Paul and tried to derive an analogy to music where external cueing,focus of attention, visual dominance, self optimisation and cognitive workload were fundamentals like a good bass riff. Trying to play a tune without those fundamentals would end up with plinkety plonkety music like modern jazz and shite like that

regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

It does make it difficult to know which one is working. If for example we show the video and then pantomime the correct movement, and the student gets better, how do we know that both were effective? Perhaps it would have been even better with just one.

And of course the proof of this particular pudding is it still edible two weeks later?

I take your point though. We are not *just* teaching movement.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

I don’t think it’s ever one thing Paul. You hit the right chord, there’s a bit of resonance and there’s a spark in their eyes or their movement and they have it. At that point, I drink my tea and don’t interfere because they are playing with the movement. It will only be there 2 weeks later if they reinforce it with practice.

I don’t think it’s easy to write about the non verbal communication but we all do it.

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi Paul and Vince,

Visualisation is different from watching a video and like all strategies they have strengths and weaknesses. As you've pointed out, videos may confuse because they show too much, mixing what is cause and what is effect. The other risk is the possibility of the viewer mistaking a movement fundamental with an individual nuance of the caster and copying the nuance rather than the fundamental. I've fallen into that trap many times and it is an absolute learning killer. I think that is a common cause of development stagnation or even regression in our sport. Casting is not unique in respect of that challenge. I think it is about both figuring things out and being shown, a skilled instructor will move from one to the other as required. I think the use of many tools is apt, as the challenge changes, sometimes, so should the strategy. As you've said Paul, if one method does not work, use another.

Flexibility is good,

John

[Paul Arden]

It will only be there 2 weeks later if they reinforce it with practice.

Absolutely. I think we can also help by asking them to describe the new movement in their terms. Then it’s really coming from the source and they are more likely to both remember and recall it.

It’s funny whenever I ask this everyone wants to have a few more casts.

It’s the same as being asking how does the wine taste? You’ll certainly want another sip before answering!

All part of the feedback loop of course.

Visualisation is different from watching a video

Totally. Sorry that was my fault, John, for following that trail.

Do we visualise the casts from first person or third person perspective? I use a mix myself but mostly third person.

This last thought made me wonder if it had been researched. Of course it has!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 461500037X

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Hi Paul

I find that the dialogue with a student establishes the terminology that we use in the lesson, so I never think to ask them to describe the cast as a summary because I think I already know. I will give it a go sometime, it sounds interesting.

The link that you have provided has a conclusion that both external and internal visualisation is used by “ higher skill-level athletes”. I don’t teach many of those casters but like yourself I use both types of visualisation for myself but have caused cognitive load with the internal.

I also picked up on the use visualisation for learning new tasks that lead me to the original study

https://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol62/har ... 20activity.

External visual imagery is superior to internal visual imagery for the acquisition and performance of tasks that are heavily dependent on form for successful execution. This effect exists for all Ss whether or not they are inexperienced or experienced in the activity.

For your karate buddy, form is very important for the kata but I think it’s a grey area for us. If you had a scale of 1 to 10 that had Open skill at 10, and closed skill near 0. I would judge fly casting much closer to 10 than either a competition caster or an instructor assessor. Similarly, I think that my view of a pattern is likely to be much fuzzier than a competition caster.

In my opinion, a learner may arrive at a casting lesson with a vague external visualisation in their mind but the sooner we supplant that vague image with a specific external cue the better.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Hi Vince,

Another benefit I find in asking them to describe their movement is that you can end up with new cues or analogies in your tool box. I also find it very interesting to know what is going through their heads at the time and to hear their description of it. But primarily it’s for them, so they can recall it after the lesson. Let me know what you find!

Something I find rather interesting in these dialogues is that they often say “now I understand what you meant six months ago” My take from that is that they always have to find it for themselves. It’s very interesting that they suddenly recall these cues that didn’t work at the time.

I would judge fly casting much closer to 10 than either a competition caster or an instructor assessor

Instructor assessment, the window is pretty large and you want to be safely through the middle. In distance competition you are trying to balance squeezing everything out of the cast. The longest casts are just inside the borderline of throwing a tail. You definitely don’t want to be accidentally throwing tails in instructor exams.

If you’re not throwing them in competition, however, then you are probably not pushing hard enough. It’s definitely not about casting within our comfort zone. That would be an entirely different competition and far less fun IMO. By the sounds of it the WCs is heading that way with their 1/2m scoring and the number of casters throwing at the top now.

For me the best thing about competitive casting is comparing techniques. You take a technique as far as you think it will go. And then someone stands next to you with a different technique and puts it past you. In fact that’s why I got into it in the first place. If John Allen hadn’t put it past me 20 something years ago I’d probably still be throwing 105’. And I’d never have learned stopless or 170. To me that is the game-changer for windy Saltwater shots.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Something I find rather interesting in these dialogues is that they often say “now I understand what you meant six months ago”

This was me with casting books, I didn’t understand them until I had learnt the skill.

You can push the performance boundaries in both closed and open skill events but Assessments and competition tend to be relatively stable and predictable environments compared to fishing to conduct your task.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z ... revision/3

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

The big variation is obviously wind, Vince. Somewhere like the BFCC the wind is from behind usually but I’ve cast competitions in strong crosswinds in both directions, as well as headwinds. Weather plays a part too, particularly rain and humidity. Hot/cold makes a difference and changing altitude can totally throw me. The wind is the biggest one though usually, and you have to try to find a way to use it.

But then every cast is different. We are not trying to repeat a previous cast, or repeat some ideal cast that we have done before, instead we are playing with the combination of variables to throw the longest cast in these conditions.

People might assume that a distance caster in training is trying to repeat a cast, when in fact he is developing a new cast, every cast. In some ways every cast is a new experiment.

All training is actually a form of competition. If you set a game to curve around a tree to place the fly close to an eggcup, the competition is how close can you get? Can you put the fly in the egg cup? And if so then how many times in a row? And if there are two or three people casting then it’s even more fun. Carlos has many of these games for presentation casts and all the Spanish students and instructors play them.

I’ve always enjoyed these, often spontaneous, competitions with other casters. My personal favourite has always been the Sexyloops Shootouts (although casting through upper story windows in Idaho Falls with Rick, Bill, Bruce, Lasse and others, would be up there too ) . In Shootouts we cast WC comp gear, fishing tackle, mismatched outfits, cane rods, chopsticks. That’s what I like. Pre WCs that’s what we used to train for because you never knew what gear you were going to be handed in a shop or angling fair competition And you had two minutes to make it work to the best of your ability.

What standardising the 5WT gear did back in early 2000s was to allow us to compare ourselves against other casters around the world without actually being there. We knew what distances Rick and Steve were throwing. And we could sort of compare ourselves to them, from the other side of the pond. It wasn’t just Europe either and they were doing it in Malaysia before I arrived. Indonesia and Australia too. Other places too no doubt. It’s no different from the egg cup around the tree cast, it’s just that you can compare yourself to the best.

If you are going to do consistently well in competition then you need to be versatile. But I would think that applies to all sports. I’m pretty sure Lasse and I were very competitive in the Danish games when we were in Montana at an FFF conclave. But maybe that’s because there was beer involved and I can’t remember!

What I like about the WCs with fly tackle is that many of the competitors are instructors and guides. Not all for sure but almost all are very serious anglers. The conversations are usually about fishing, not casting.

I’d love to see a whack-a-mole type flycasting competition. I’m sure that competition raises our game. Of course if the competition doesn’t fit our requirements (eg shooting heads, DHD for me) then it’s less useful. I’d love to see more competitions developed. When we teach we set little games for our students. They need to be challenging, applicable and measurable.

We also have to remember that skills are transferable. What the 5WT game/distance Shootouts has given me, is the ability to make shots into any wind. For SW anglers taking shots on windy flats then this sort of distance event has all the components. Making it measurable, challenging, applicable and hopefully fun!


I’m not starting an argument just giving you my perspective as someone who has been through 20 odd years of competitive casting as has seen his casting change for the better as a result! I really am very grateful for getting beaten by Jon Allen back in 2000 and deciding to do something about it.

I think that the Danish Games could be better incidentally. The distances in the game could be random. Maybe we should tweak it and start such a competition? Alternatively it would be very easy to turn the Sexyloops Casting Challenge into a competition!

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Something I find rather interesting in these dialogues is that they often say “now I understand what you meant six months ago”

This was me with casting books, I didn’t understand them until I had learnt the skill.

I cannot count the times I have said to myself... "So that is what those words I memorized meant!"

I actually find it humorous and hopefully it will happen many times more.