Structuring multiple lessons

[John Waters]

Hi John

Rained off from fishing again here

I am not sure what you mean by "any agreed-upon version of a definition". Does that refer to the biomechanical applicability of proximal to distal in general sport, just fly casting or is it a reference to something else.

It came from a meta review of the topic, the measured parameters varied from study to study such that data could not be compared or compiled. This occurred if the studies objectives differed such as absolute performance vs injury prevention and rehabilitation.

As to translating the mechanism to an audience it depends on the quality of the communication. It is simpler than some perceive.

Other than absolute rod hand speed, what mechanisms do you think should be considered?

Do you mean the wrist rather than hand?

No, I was considering a foundation type stroke.

Regards

Vince

Hi Vince,

Thanks for that clarification, all research needs clear objectives and hypotheses.

In my view there are a few considerations. Individual joint linear and vertical velocities, angular velocity of specific segments, segment separation angles, normalised timings of each joint linear and angular velocities and muscle activity, are my important mechanisms. Absolute joint velocity is important, but so also is the relative sequencing of the maximum velocity attainment of joint and segment movement.

My apologies, but I do not understand what you mean by foundation type stroke.

John

[John Waters]

A straight arm euronymphing lob, without wrist deviation, uses the shoulder in either adduction or abduction.

Sorry John, I missed this, I was planning some fishing . Is this good or bad?

Regards

Vince

HI Vince,

Neither good or bad, it's essential.

Hope the rain stops and you can get to a stream.

John

[VGB]

Hi John

In my view there are a few considerations. Individual joint linear and vertical velocities, angular velocity of specific segments, segment separation angles, normalised timings of each joint linear and angular velocities and muscle activity, are my important mechanisms. Absolute joint velocity is important, but so also is the relative sequencing of the maximum velocity attainment of joint and segment movement.

This is all good laboratory output but it needs to be synthesised to be useful to take into a lesson.

Neither good or bad, it's essential.

Sorry, I’m not following you because a straight arm isn’t essential to cast Euronymph style, it’s just a common solution that I see on the river.

My apologies, but I do not understand what you mean by foundation type stroke.

About 1 minute onwards, the short line/short stroke adage appears as well



Hoping to fish tomorrow before I go stir crazy.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

As I understand it, the body core is central to the kinetic chains in sports because it enables load transfers to and from the limbs. Our ability to self organise means that we develop compensatory patterns in the kinetic chain if the chain is disrupted that can lead to high loads on distal parts, overuse of weaker limbs and joints, and overload injuries such as hyper extensions. Highlighting this disruption to the kinetic chain due to arm separation appeared to be the point of Rob Grays video of the baseball player.

Maybe we can work backwards from this because distance casting is similar to our baseball player. Following the initial Lift, the cast begins with weight shift, torso rotation is added, shoulder and finally the elbow. The important part is that this movement stops in sequence, first weight shift stops, then torso stops and finally the forearm stops and the wrist flips. Momentum generated lower in the body has been used to turn the rod over near the end of the stroke. All is good in our world. Contrast that to someone who starts with hand movement and tries to drive the rod with the forearm which is very common and you can clearly see the difference. With the first the effort is stopping movement of the forearm and allowing the wrist to flip the rod. With the second the forearm is responsible for both accelerating and decelerating the rod butt directly. Hard work and the white knuckles throughout is a good indicator!

Now the line is shorter. Maybe the target is 30ft. No need to weight shift for such a cast. The cast starts from the shoulder, continues with the elbow. The elbow stops and the forearm flips. Easier than the caster driving through and then stopping the elbow while using it as an extension of the rod.

The key for me is momentum transfer through the body. The longer the cast the more of the body we use and the closer to the ground we begin.

I would say that most casters don’t do it the easy way. Most instructors make it hard too. Understanding this would certainly transform flycasting. Not just as a sport but for your casual angler who takes it seriously. The same applies to FN.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

At 30ft. From an open stance, I lift and rotate my shoulders around my core before engaging the distal elements of the kinetic chain including my legs. This is a natural progression from the triangle method.

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi John

In my view there are a few considerations. Individual joint linear and vertical velocities, angular velocity of specific segments, segment separation angles, normalised timings of each joint linear and angular velocities and muscle activity, are my important mechanisms. Absolute joint velocity is important, but so also is the relative sequencing of the maximum velocity attainment of joint and segment movement.

This is all good laboratory output but it needs to be synthesised to be useful to take into a lesson.

Neither good or bad, it's essential.

Sorry, I’m not following you because a straight arm isn’t essential to cast Euronymph style, it’s just a common solution that I see on the river.

My apologies, but I do not understand what you mean by foundation type stroke.

About 1 minute onwards, the short line/short stroke adage appears as well



Hoping to fish tomorrow before I go stir crazy.

Regards

Vince

Hi Vince,

In my view, having specific casting movement data is the starting point. From that, analysis can be performed about what movement patterns and sequences best satisfy any number of casting objectives. Just the same as laboratory output has been the basis of the motor learning and teaching tenets that have been referred to here on Sexyloops. I believe a major roadblock impacting the movement we instruct is that lack of specific data that accurately reflects the movement used and the movement desired. It's always about facts, not perceptions. Why should the evolution of what we teach differ from the evolution of how we teach it? I contend it is the same pathway for both and that shared evolution should have the same benchmarks. Technology now allows for data to be collected in a laboratory or in the field. How that information should be used by instructors in a lesson is the "how" we instruct, and that has already been well researched and referenced. The extent to which any change is accepted by the casting community is another issue but it all starts with the facts. Synthesising laboratory data into lesson plans has been achieved to a very high level in other sport instruction, so casting is not breaking new ground. It's all been done before.

About the straight arm in euronymphing, if you do not deviate your wrist or flex/extend your elbow then you must adduct /abduct the shoulder. If not the rod does not move. That comment was in response you you mentioning "Euronymphing done with a straightish arm”. Without elbow flexion/extension and supination/pronation, and with a static wrist, shoulder movement is all you’ve got available, if you want to move the rod.

Joan Wulff’s video endorses the principle. Although she talks about limb segments, what she is activating is joint movement. The short line short stroke adage reinforces proximal to distal movement in fly casting.

John

[VGB]

Hi John

As I mentioned in my post yesterday, laboratory data needs to be synthesised for lessons. However, the data needs to be gathered for an objective and I highlighted existing issues with that from the meta analysis.

As Mark mentioned in post 92 and is evidenced in Paul’s post 114, I believe we have clear water between the objectives of casting competitors and angling students even for data gathering purposes. Competition casters are focused on absolute performance, hence your studies on hand speed and the relationship with the proximal to distal principle.

In contrast, I’ve spent more time reading up on injury prevention and rehabilitation and how load paths can be distributed using the same principle. My first group class of this year had a couple of students with carpal tunnel syndrome and a student with one leg, I have another similar class next weekend and am highly likely to see similar issues. Thirty feet casts are distance casts for many of these students.

Joan Wulff’s video endorses the principle. Although she talks about limb segments, what she is activating is joint movement. The short line short stroke adage reinforces proximal to distal movement in fly casting.

Thank you for that. You have raised on many occasions that you have concerns about arm centric teaching by the instructosphere, please could you provide an example of what this is?

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

Hi John

In my view, having specific casting movement data is the starting point. From that, analysis can be performed about what movement patterns and sequences best satisfy any number of casting objectives.

The test objective or hypothesis is the starting point for both the scientific method and Systems Engineering. As a flight trials engineer I would not have got a test plan through scrutiny unless the data was selected to satisfy the objective. Data collection and analysis is an expensive business.

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi John

As I mentioned in my post yesterday, laboratory data needs to be synthesised for lessons. However, the data needs to be gathered for an objective and I highlighted existing issues with that from the meta analysis.

As Mark mentioned in post 92 and is evidenced in Paul’s post 114, I believe we have clear water between the objectives of casting competitors and angling students even for data gathering purposes. Competition casters are focused on absolute performance, hence your studies on hand speed and the relationship with the proximal to distal principle.

In contrast, I’ve spent more time reading up on injury prevention and rehabilitation and how load paths can be distributed using the same principle. My first group class of this year had a couple of students with carpal tunnel syndrome and a student with one leg, I have another similar class next weekend and am highly likely to see similar issues. Thirty feet casts are distance casts for many of these students.

Joan Wulff’s video endorses the principle. Although she talks about limb segments, what she is activating is joint movement. The short line short stroke adage reinforces proximal to distal movement in fly casting.

Thank you for that. You have raised on many occasions that you have concerns about arm centric teaching by the instructosphere, please could you provide an example of what this is?

Regards

Vince

Hi Vince,

I don't see that the transition from data through analysis to lesson plans is a issue in casting instruction. That transition has evolved very successfully by coaches in other sports. Baseball is an example. I saw some data recently that showed in 2008, there were 214 fastballs clocked at 100 mph or faster, in 2023 3,367 pitches hit 100 mph or faster. Something has changed in technique and many coaches have been able to synthesise the change or changes into lesson and training plans, so I repeat, it has been done before. How long did it take athletic coaches around the world to synthesise the Fosby flop into instruction and trying plans? Not very long because it quickly became the standard technique. Not a big issue IMHO. I don't see the distinctions between competition and angling casting technique, instruction and training/practice as being as dissimilar. Competition accuracy casting and overhead angling casting to targets or fish, up to 15 metres away supports the commonality in each (overgrown streams being the exception). The focus on an "absolute performance" technique by competition distance casters has the same focus as most open water anglers focus on when they want to cast to that fish a few feet beyond their best distance cast thus far. It looks far different than it is. The performance drivers are the same or very similar. Competition instructors and competitors focus, or should focus, on injury prevention as much as angling instructors should. Tennis elbow or rotator cuff pain will ruin a trip to the casting WCs just as much as it will ruin an angling trip to the Bahamas. You are correct to focus on load distribution. The distances both competition casters and anglers achieve do vary from individual to individual, condition to condition, environment to environment, but the fundamentals of the technique by both should not.

The \\\\\\\/ adage, focus on translation rather than rotation, push vs pull, focus on front of shoulder arm extension are a few examples.

John

[John Waters]

Hi John

In my view, having specific casting movement data is the starting point. From that, analysis can be performed about what movement patterns and sequences best satisfy any number of casting objectives.

The test objective or hypothesis is the starting point for both the scientific method and Systems Engineering. As a flight trials engineer I would not have got a test plan through scrutiny unless the data was selected to satisfy the objective. Data collection and analysis is an expensive business.

Regards

Vince

Hi Vince,

Researchers have to do the same with ethics committee applications.

John