Structuring multiple lessons

[VGB]

Hi John

so I repeat, it has been done before

Yes, by starting with a question, forming a hypotheses and conducting a test then analysing the captured data. So what is “the” question that you want answered?

in 2023 3,367 pitches hit 100 mph or faster. Something has changed in technique and many coaches have been able to synthesise the change or changes into lesson and training plans, so I repeat, it has been done before.

What happened to the rate of injuries in the sport with this increase in speed? Lots of studies about Tommy Johns surgery are producing statistics like these below:

During the study period, 3185 elbow injuries (n = 430 Major League; n = 2755 Minor League) occurred. The mean number of days missed and percentage requiring surgery were similar between Major and Minor League players. Overall, 20.0% (650/3185) of the injuries required surgical treatment. Pitchers were the most likely to incur an elbow injury (40.0% of injured athletes were pitchers), were the most likely to require surgery (34.2% of injured pitchers required surgery), and had the greatest mean number of days missed when treated nonsurgically (33.2 days). Medial injuries composed 42.1% (1342/3185) of all elbow injuries. Of all elbow surgeries performed during the study period, the highest percentage involved ligaments (372/650; 57.2%).

Competition accuracy casting and overhead angling casting to targets or fish, up to 15 metres away supports the commonality in each (overgrown streams being the exception)

Overgrown streams are not the only exception. Most rivers have trees and boulders, skiffs have a guy on a platform poling behind them. Many people fish up to their waist in water. There are a huge amount of constraints that drive varying solutions, otherwise we would only have to teach one cast. Would you use your competition accuracy techniques to teach someone with carpal tunnel syndrome?

You are describing a destination not the journey to get there and that is why we have clear water between us.

H what technique you start teaching the average angler to cast 15m accurately, who did not have good control of the fly line. Do you ignore hauling? How will you take a novice to your idealised technique?

The \\\\\\\/ adage, focus on translation rather than rotation

I’ve never seen it taught as one or the other. Push vs pull was over a long time as far as I’m aware and I have not seen any focus on front of shoulder arm extension, please could you show some examples?

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

And a bit more on baseball. Taking real data based on constraints and looking at the bigger picture rather than absolute performance throws up some interesting findings:

Does the kinetic chain link in the expected proximal to distal order? Does it link in the same way with each execution of a movement? To foreshadow- NO and NO. A look at work on kinematic sequencing in throwing.

[Stoatstail50]

Why should the evolution of what we teach differ from the evolution of how we teach it? I contend it is the same pathway for both and that shared evolution should have the same benchmarks. Technology now allows for data to be collected in a laboratory or in the field. How that information should be used by instructors in a lesson is the "how" we instruct, and that has already been well researched and referenced.

I don’t think there’s any instructor out in the wider world of sport that would argue that the evolution in understanding of who we teach, what we teach and how we teach it, require differing research pathways. I certainly don’t. I’m sure your own experience studying pro sports indicates that instructors study all three in considerable detail before they’re let loose on the job market.

My personal contention is that in training new casting instructors we don’t do that.

I don't see the distinctions between competition and angling casting technique, instruction and training/practice as being as dissimilar.

I know what it is you are driving at John but sadly I disagree, I think they are.

How long did it take athletic coaches around the world to synthesise the Fosby flop into instruction and trying plans? Not very long because it quickly became the standard technique.

It became the standard technique for maximal athletic performance. If athletic coaches were teaching ordinary people to cross the garden fence, would they teach them a Fosbury flop or how to find and open the garden gate ? Optimal and Maximal are not the same and they are circumstantially variable.

I don’t disagree that there are circumstantial similarities between the demands for competition distance and casting up wind on a bonefish flat or lake shore but this is irrelevant if it doesn’t fit the capabilities and objectives of the caster…this changes everything.

Even though, at a most basic level, what we teach may be similar, we are developing those common generalised motor patterns discussed elsewhere, and, even though we know, at a most basic level, how people generally learn, if the capabilities, experience, needs and motivations of individual casters are different then what we teach and how we teach it are different too.

My grandfather fished his entire life on a tree lined river probably no more than 40’ wide for much of it’s course. He might have benefitted from learning to carry 80’ in a 170 distance cast, I don’t know a bad short range caster who can do that, but you would have had a devil of a job to get him off the water to learn it because there would be zero motivation for him to do so.

As it happens he would have told any instructor trying to teach him anything to bugger off…but that’s beside the point

The extent to which any change is accepted by the casting community is another issue but it all starts with the facts.

It starts from where the casting community actually is. This is a place dominated by anecdote and self publicity where facts, or well established, extensively researched theory, are not really welcome. Quite a lot of instructors are a bit like my Grandfather in that respect

[John Waters]

Hi John

so I repeat, it has been done before

Yes, by starting with a question, forming a hypotheses and conducting a test then analysing the captured data. So what is “the” question that you want answered?

in 2023 3,367 pitches hit 100 mph or faster. Something has changed in technique and many coaches have been able to synthesise the change or changes into lesson and training plans, so I repeat, it has been done before.

What happened to the rate of injuries in the sport with this increase in speed? Lots of studies about Tommy Johns surgery are producing statistics like these below:

During the study period, 3185 elbow injuries (n = 430 Major League; n = 2755 Minor League) occurred. The mean number of days missed and percentage requiring surgery were similar between Major and Minor League players. Overall, 20.0% (650/3185) of the injuries required surgical treatment. Pitchers were the most likely to incur an elbow injury (40.0% of injured athletes were pitchers), were the most likely to require surgery (34.2% of injured pitchers required surgery), and had the greatest mean number of days missed when treated nonsurgically (33.2 days). Medial injuries composed 42.1% (1342/3185) of all elbow injuries. Of all elbow surgeries performed during the study period, the highest percentage involved ligaments (372/650; 57.2%).

Competition accuracy casting and overhead angling casting to targets or fish, up to 15 metres away supports the commonality in each (overgrown streams being the exception)

Overgrown streams are not the only exception. Most rivers have trees and boulders, skiffs have a guy on a platform poling behind them. Many people fish up to their waist in water. There are a huge amount of constraints that drive varying solutions, otherwise we would only have to teach one cast. Would you use your competition accuracy techniques to teach someone with carpal tunnel syndrome?

You are describing a destination not the journey to get there and that is why we have clear water between us.

H what technique you start teaching the average angler to cast 15m accurately, who did not have good control of the fly line. Do you ignore hauling? How will you take a novice to your idealised technique?

The \\\\\\\/ adage, focus on translation rather than rotation

I’ve never seen it taught as one or the other. Push vs pull was over a long time as far as I’m aware and I have not seen any focus on front of shoulder arm extension, please could you show some examples?

Regards

Vince

Hi Vince,

I don't really have a question, my last few posts have been answering your questions.

As I've said velocity increases have resulted from something. Was the period that of increased injuries 2008 to 2023? Did whatever cause the velocity gains cause the injuries? I have described a destination, in exactly the same way you have for increases in surgery. My point is that athletes in many sports produce enhanced performances over time and it is often the result of better technique, better coaching and better preparation, physical and mental. I reiterate, I suggest casting coaches should study the coaching journey other throwing sport coaches underwent to produce those throwing better results for their athletes. If it's a coaching journey you want to take, would it not make sense to study the journey other coaches have undergone? Has that not been done here with the coaches like Winkleman? Why not do the same specifically for coaches of throwing sports like baseball and javelin? Who knows, we all might learn something about both the journey and the destination.

I use an over the shoulder stroke as the model technique and vary that according to the casting or angling objective. If they do not have control of the line I seek to identify the technique issue that is causing that lack of control. It includes hauling. What is "idealised technique"? I use movement principles to deliver the novice's objectives. How would you answer these questions?

I'm sure you have seen reference to \\\\\\\/ or, only rotate the rod after you have expired rod translation. I'm surprised you have not seen or heard reference to "push into the rod bend" during wrist rotation on the delivery stroke. Plenty of "how to" videos focusing on what should happen in front of the shoulder in distance casting. Now I know a front of the shoulder focus is good for short line casts, but when you asked the question in post 117, you did not specify short vs long line casting. Not much out there about posterior shoulder positioning for long line stuff.

I searched distance fly casting and got this page. I clicked on the first video mentioned, "Fly Fishing Casting Long Distance and Techniques - Using Technique, the Double Haul & False Casting" by FlyFishDan. Have a look at Dan's video from 5:50 onwards. Check out his torso movement range and sequencing. I'll leave you to find more that advocate an arm centric technique.

John

[John Waters]

And a bit more on baseball. Taking real data based on constraints and looking at the bigger picture rather than absolute performance throws up some interesting findings:

Does the kinetic chain link in the expected proximal to distal order? Does it link in the same way with each execution of a movement? To foreshadow- NO and NO. A look at work on kinematic sequencing in throwing.

I have found the similar variability. Maybe I should ditch the concept of the kinetic chain model for fly casting? I think not.

John

[John Waters]

Why should the evolution of what we teach differ from the evolution of how we teach it? I contend it is the same pathway for both and that shared evolution should have the same benchmarks. Technology now allows for data to be collected in a laboratory or in the field. How that information should be used by instructors in a lesson is the "how" we instruct, and that has already been well researched and referenced.

I don’t think there’s any instructor out in the wider world of sport that would argue that the evolution in understanding of who we teach, what we teach and how we teach it, require differing research pathways. I certainly don’t. I’m sure your own experience studying pro sports indicates that instructors study all three in considerable detail before they’re let loose on the job market.

My personal contention is that in training new casting instructors we don’t do that.

I don't see the distinctions between competition and angling casting technique, instruction and training/practice as being as dissimilar.

I know what it is you are driving at John but sadly I disagree, I think they are.

How long did it take athletic coaches around the world to synthesise the Fosby flop into instruction and trying plans? Not very long because it quickly became the standard technique.

It became the standard technique for maximal athletic performance. If athletic coaches were teaching ordinary people to cross the garden fence, would they teach them a Fosbury flop or how to find and open the garden gate ? Optimal and Maximal are not the same and they are circumstantially variable.

I don’t disagree that there are circumstantial similarities between the demands for competition distance and casting up wind on a bonefish flat or lake shore but this is irrelevant if it doesn’t fit the capabilities and objectives of the caster…this changes everything.

Even though, at a most basic level, what we teach may be similar, we are developing those common generalised motor patterns discussed elsewhere, and, even though we know, at a most basic level, how people generally learn, if the capabilities, experience, needs and motivations of individual casters are different then what we teach and how we teach it are different too.

My grandfather fished his entire life on a tree lined river probably no more than 40’ wide for much of it’s course. He might have benefitted from learning to carry 80’ in a 170 distance cast, I don’t know a bad short range caster who can do that, but you would have had a devil of a job to get him off the water to learn it because there would be zero motivation for him to do so.

As it happens he would have told any instructor trying to teach him anything to bugger off…but that’s beside the point

The extent to which any change is accepted by the casting community is another issue but it all starts with the facts.

It starts from where the casting community actually is. This is a place dominated by anecdote and self publicity where facts, or well established, extensively researched theory, are not really welcome. Quite a lot of instructors are a bit like my Grandfather in that respect

"My personal contention is that in training new casting instructors we don’t do that." You have far more contact with instructors than I do Mark, I'll bow to your better judgement on that.

"I know what it is you are driving at John but sadly I disagree, I think they are. ". We can respectfully agree to disagree on that view.

"It became the standard technique for maximal athletic performance. If athletic coaches were teaching ordinary people to cross the garden fence, would they teach them a Fosbury flop or how to find and open the garden gate ? Optimal and Maximal are not the same and they are circumstantially variable. " My reference to high jumping was competition high jumping, I know little about crossing a garden fence. Many may say I know little about casting instruction too. I would suggest all the high jumping coaches in Paris later this year would not teach the Fosby flop to cross a fence, but they all teach it to jumping athletes who want to improve their high jumping.

"I don’t disagree that there are circumstantial similarities between the demands for competition distance and casting up wind on a bonefish flat or lake shore but this is irrelevant if it doesn’t fit the capabilities and objectives of the caster…this changes everything. " But are they relevant it it fits the capabilities and objectives of the caster?

"if the capabilities, experience, needs and motivations of individual casters are different then what we teach and how we teach it are different too" Agree, same applies when coaching competition casters.

"My grandfather fished his entire life on a tree lined river probably no more than 40’ wide for much of it’s course. He might have benefitted from learning to carry 80’ in a 170 distance cast, I don’t know a bad short range caster who can do that, but you would have had a devil of a job to get him off the water to learn it because there would be zero motivation for him to do so." I would agree with your Dad on carrying 80 feet of fly line if he only fished small streams. It would not suit any objective he had of improving his casting performance in his fishing environment and would be a waste of his time learning that task. My response may be a tad more explicit than his.

"It starts from where the casting community actually is. This is a place dominated by anecdote and self publicity where facts, or well established, extensively researched theory, are not really welcome. Quite a lot of instructors are a bit like my Grandfather in that respect". Again I'll bow to your greater knowledge about that.

John

[Stoatstail50]

We can respectfully agree to disagree on that view.

We could I suppose but if these statements are true then we don't disagree at all.

I would suggest all the high jumping coaches in Paris later this year would not teach the Fosby flop to cross a fence, but they all teach it to jumping athletes who want to improve their high jumping.

I'm sure thats true.

But are they relevant it it fits the capabilities and objectives of the caster?

Yes, of course.

I would agree with your Dad on carrying 80 feet of fly line if he only fished small streams. It would not suit any objective he had of improving his casting performance in his fishing environment and would be a waste of his time learning that task.

That's a heck of a lot of agreeing for someone who wants to agree to disagree

[Paul Arden]

I believe we have clear water between the objectives of casting competitors and angling students even for data gathering purposes. Competition casters are focused on absolute performance,

I’m an angling student focussed on absolute performance

To be honest I don’t really see the separation you see. I just see competition as having the core basics done really well. It’s not something different; It’s just more refined maybe.

There are many challenges in fly fishing casting; casting in the sticks, taking shots and so on. The closer your fishing is to taking shots then the better your core technique needs to be IMO. It’s not critical if you are casting 15’. But if you are taking a shot into the wind then it matters a lot. It’s all good.

I’ve spent a huge amount of my life fishing for trout. Many of my most memorable life’s moments have been fishing for them. And sometimes for the shots themselves too.

Now to catch up with the rest of the discussion

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Have caught up!

Let’s take a 40’ cast then. No obstructions. Our caster has duck taped his rod butt to his forearm because he couldn’t afford the strap.

IMG_8115.jpeg (29.81 KiB) Viewed 55 times

His cast goes 40’. Are we cool with this? (He’s not a competition caster)

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

Our caster has duck taped his rod butt to his forearm because he couldn’t afford the strap.

Are we cool with this?

No.