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LouLou Bruno wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:23 pm Several times when describing the definition of a haul the phrase, ”hauling the line through the guides increases line speed" is used.
By that definition, is it possible to haul and NOT have the line travel through the guides; basically the rod motion would have to travel faster than the haul line speed?
If your definition of hauling is pulling the line through the rings by moving the line hand, then it’s possible to move the line hand without pulling the line through the rings, ie line hand movement not making a haul. Same thing, depends on a definition which we don’t have yet of course! 
I spend a lot of time teaching the double haul. Teaching it to beginners is totally different to teaching it to a high level. You can’t teach to build a stroke around the haul until you’ve taught weight shift and body rotation. But I teach the double haul long before that. I don’t even teach pattern in any great shape or form to a beginner. This stuff happens much later in their progression. 
Most self taught haulers haul only on the backcast, or at best ineffectively on the front. It’s usually half a haul and rushed. The backcast haul is away from the rod, whereas the front cast haul is usually in the same direction and not accomplishing anything. Timing is a bit off but can be fixed. WalterWalter wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 11:32 pmLouLou Bruno wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:23 pm Several times when describing the definition of a haul the phrase, ”hauling the line through the guides increases line speed" is used.
By that definition, is it possible to haul and NOT have the line travel through the guides; basically the rod motion would have to travel faster than the haul line speed?
It is physically possible to haul and NOT have line travel through the guides. You would begin with slide loading with the rod hand. For those who are unfamiliar with that term it involves “sliding” the rod forward along the line as the line is unrolling on the back cast in order to position the rod hand for the start of the forward cast. While the rod hand is slide loading the speed and direction of the line through the guides would be controlled by the speed of the rod and line hands relative to each other.
Assuming that the two hands are moving in the horizontal direction in the direction of the pending forward cast and that the rod and the section of line it is sliding along are both horizontal then there are three possibilities:
1) the line hand is moving faster than the rod hand so the line hand is pulling line through the guides from the tip towards the butt,
2) the line and rod hands are both moving at the same speed so that no line is being pulled through the guides even though relative to the earth both the rod and line may be moving, and
3) the rod hand is moving faster than the line hand so that relative to the rod the line is moving, or sliding, from the butt towards the tip.
Not sure if any of that has value with respect to casting but I think you were asking the question more out of curiosity than practical application.
This is why I asked this question. This discussion has taken my hauling awareness to a higher level.Paul Arden wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2024 6:09 am
The double haul is taught rather poorly on the whole. It seems like once we’ve got someone going down-up down-up that’s the end of it. But really that’s just the beginning.
Cheers, Paul
No Walter definitely not. Johansson's technique is far more performance enhancing than Feuerstein's hauling technique.
My comments in post 44 pertain solely to Feuerstein's hauling movement pattern. He uses a long movement but it generates less speed than a different, shorter movement would for the same speed outcome, because he uses poor body structure in his hauling movement.
Anyone using Feuerstein's hauling technique as their standard, model hauling technique will never achieve their hauling performance potential.
It is just wrong.
Torsten wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:42 am Hi John,
as witten in the physics section, different techniques for different purposes, you can't compare them IMHO.
Feuerstein's haul is related to off-shoulder or backhand casting, that means for a right handed caster you move the rod across the left shoulder while facing the target with your body. Often required in practical fishing, e.g. when the wind is blowing towards the rod hand side or when I'm river fishing from the bank and the river is on the left side of my body. You can solve this also alternatively by back casting, disadvantage is then your shoulders are not facing the target.
Now the question is, if a high haul hand position is better than a low one - I've tried this yesterday - has pro and cons. An argument for it is that the shooting position of the line is better, the line has not to be lifted upward. Another interesting property is, that you can "passively" haul, just by keeping the hand about head height.
Greetings,
Torsten
No Walter definitely not. Johansson's technique is far more performance enhancing than Feuerstein's hauling technique.
My comments in post 44 pertain solely to Feuerstein's hauling movement pattern. He uses a long movement but it generates less speed than a different, shorter movement would for the same speed outcome, because he uses poor body structure in his hauling movement.
Anyone using Feuerstein's hauling technique as their standard, model hauling technique will never achieve their hauling performance potential.
It is just wrong.
Hi Torsten,
There are a number of situations that mean the fisher modifies their standard or model casting technique. However to use GF’s haul technique as your standard is the wrong choice to make if you want your standard stroke to deliver the best performance outcomes possible. As I said a number of posts back, I’ve used it for short casting but as an exception, not the rule. I would trade off the release height of the line for haul hand speed in the vast majority of situations, but haul release height and positioning is an interesting topic and worthy of specific discussion. The problem with keeping the haul at head height throughout the hauling movement as GF advocates is the negative impact on shoulder health.
John