Welcome Bruce Richards

[Bruce Richards]

]Hi Christian, I'll try to answer your questions below, preceeded by *****.
Bruce

Hi Bruce,

thanks for sharing your knowledge about fly line design and development on the board, it is much appreciated!
Here's a list of questions:

There is a number of different opinions about line cleaning around. Of course we all need "special lubricants" to prevent damage to those hightech lifestyle products, but maybe there is the golden middle - a cleaning solution that works, is amazingly cheap and perfect for keeping our lines shootable and long-living?
****Line cleaning is easy and cheap.. Dirt covers up the low friction, hydrophobic properties of the high tech line coatings. Clean the dirt off, lines work much better. I like soap and water on a soft cloth. Scrub the line a couple times, rinse, go fishing. This works great on most modern lines that have slick, hydrophobic finishes. If the lines coating is compromised by age, damage, etc. you might want to dress the line after cleaning. (Most of the stuff sold to put on fly lines are dressings, NOT clearners). Good dressings are made of silicone, without solvent carrier. If the dressing has an odor, don't use it.
And not that I said clean with "soap", that is NOT detergent, which is too harsh. More on that later...

Another "fact" people keep telling me, is that casting on grass kills lines due to the very potent acids in grass. What do you think about that? Am I a victim of another urban legend?
*****Yes...

My last question is about line storage: The introduction of LA reels is quite ok for preventing "spirals" in lines, however they might still occur. So how do we store the lines, we do not frequently use - wind them on bigger spools? Unwind them at full-moon? Buy only SA lines?
*****Well, the last answer is the right one, of course, but in case there are skeptics... Lines will acquire the shape of whatever you store them on. But memory is temporary, you can reverse it simply by stretching. If you store lines for long periods on very small arbors the memory can be tenacious, especially if the line is older and stiffer. Personally, I just leave my lines on reels (LA) and stretch them before fishing. I have friends who take them off reels and store them in big coils hanging from pegs in their basement, either works. What is very important re: storage is that where the lines are stored is cool and dark. Heat and light are hard on lines. Lines have plasticizers and silicone oils in their coatings, those fluids keep them slick and flexible. These fluids migrate out of the line over time, if exposed to excess heat or solvents or harsh cleaners they migrate out more quickly and lines become stiff and less slick. The ideal storage place is in a refrigerator or freezer, they outlive the owner in there!

And if a precious old line is looking like an ancient telephone cable: Is there a cure (like stretching between two trucks? heating it up to 62,345 degrees and stretching it?) or should we dump it?
*****This line is the one I'm talking about above, fluids gone, leading to stiffness and eventually, cracking. There is no way to resurrect that I know of...
Bruce

Thanks,
Christian

[Bruce Richards]

Hi Vince, great questions, will try to answer them all below.... preceeded by *****

Hi Bruce

I've stolen the requirements below for a tropical line from a post Graeme H made just over a year ago. Is it practical, where would the issues be from a manufacturers standpoint:
*****Manufacturers view any new line with a couple things in mind: 1 - can we make it profitably, 2 - Is there enough volume to make it worthwhile. Making $100 profit on a line is great, but not if you only see 3 of them...

If I could design a “tropical” saltwater fly line with all the fruit, these are the characteristics it would have in order of priority:

• Head length: 50’ to 60’ with a rear taper of 12’ or more, front taper around 12to 15’ long
*****This design is quite specialized and will require a skilled angler to make it work. If the market is big enough, fine, but I don't know what market it would be.
• Non-stretch core (i.e. braid)
****Cerainly possible, though of questionable benefit.
• Intermediate (1.5” per sec) tip about 15-18’ long with a floating running line/head
*****Easy
• Line weights ranging from 4 to 12wt
****Sure, but again to the market, the market for tropical lines lighter than 7 wt. is very small.
• Gentle texture on the line
*****Easy, if SA is making the line. SA holds the patent for texturing.
• Suitable for water temps of ~20° - 32°, air temps of 20 – 40°
****Sure, build on braided mono with a hard coating to counter the heat
• “Seaweed” green intermediate section, cream floating section
****Sure..
• No welded loops
*******Fine with me, but again the market will speak and most want their lines looped. I assume you have some clippers to solve the problem with! But, loops are hand made and do add to the cost.


The long head helps with windy conditions: punching a typical Rio line (head lengths of 30 to 39’) into the wind just sucks. I’ve just bought one of their 8wt “Permit” lines, with a head that’s 47’. It’s better for these incessant 50km/h winds I deal with daily, but it’s a full floater. A head of 60’ would be even better, like their Tarpon Technical line, but that’s only available in 10wt and above …
*****As I mentioned above, the small number of people who could actually make your design work don't work in it's favor. SA has made DT bonefish lines, and a lot of other quirky stuff to be tested, but none has made the catalog. Your design isn't that extreme, but close enough..

Having used a line with a non-stretch core, I’m sold. It makes the rod feel more lively during casting and when lifting the line off the water. It helps tremendously when setting the hook using the typical strip-strike method employed by swoffers, especially at target distances of 80’ or more.
*****For hook setting OK, but for line sensitivity, casting, etc. there isn't enough strain on lines to stretch them. Remember, even "stretchy" lines stretch very little at low strain. The strain of a fish sipping a nymph, or even casting, is so low that there isn't enough strain on lines to stretch them, no stretch or not. SA has done elongation testing of low stretch vs. "stretch" lines to determine how stretch might affect line sensitivity to strikes, (that's what most are interested in). There was virtually no difference in low strain stretch, some of the samples of "stretch" lines exhibited less elongation that the low stretch lines. It's easy enough to do, but there has to be a reason.

An intermediate tip gets the fly into the zone or on the bottom in 3m of water without the need for too much weight on the fly itself. The floating line aids line management and helps in mending and/or recasting. Tropical lines for the American market are nearly all full-floaters: they don’t seem to have a tropical fishery that has water 2 – 4m deep ….
****SA used to make a clear tip Mastery Tarpon line that I liked a lot. It didn't sell all that well and is gone now, but there are other options. The Sonar SW Hover and Sonar SW Int. would both work. Most of the head is sinking, not just 12-15' and that is mostly a good thing. The heads aren't as long as you'd like, but I don't think you're going to find that.

Why do all tropical lines start at 6 or 7wt? Sure, Perth (where I live and fish most often) is not considered “tropical”, but for most of the year, our water temperatures are over 20°C (currently 32° in some parts of the river) and maximum daily temperatures are between 20° and 43°C for 75% of the year. Tropical lines are the best all-year lines for most of Australia’s saltwater fishing, and some of the best fishing is for estuarine species using 3, 4 and 5wt systems. Even “up north” in the truly tropical regions, there are plenty of fish to target on 5wt systems but there are so few lines to use ….
******Back to the market... We make Mast. Bonefish lines down to 5 wt., but sell very few. Light "tropical" lines just don't sell. But there's an option.. Textured lines work very well in the heat. Although very limp, they don't get sticky and don't tangle much, as benefit of texturing.

I love textured lines. Rio’s Perception has a very subtle texture that seems to aid shooting the line and reduce the tendency for running line tangles. If textures are too aggressive, they aren’t pleasant to fish with.

*****As I stated above.. But Rio's texture is just a remnant of their manufacturing process, not a high tech, scientifically design micro-replication like SA uses. Any roughness of a lines surface will help, but true texturing is far superior. If you haven't tried it, you should, it's an eye-opener..
Great questions, thanks!
Bruce

[Bruce Richards]

Bruce,

How does the taper at the fly end of the line impact the speed of the line and reduce the "kick over" that you get with a level line at the end of a cast?

Gordy

Hi Gordy,
Taper design is all about energy conservation, or dissipation. This is a complex subject, can't cover it completely here, but I'll hit some high spots... The taper of a line won't affect it's initial speed, all else being equal, two lines with radically different tapers will leave the rod tip at the same speed. What happens after that is determined by the taper (or more accurately "mass profile") of the line. After loop formation, essentially all the energy of the cast is in the top leg. If you think of casting in a vaccum (no wind resistance, where most casting energy goes), as the top leg shortens, it accelerates. The same amt. of energy in a smaller mass = acceleration. In air, wind resistance largely prevents much acceleration. Wind resistance increases exponentially with speed, double the speed, WR quadruples, this limits acceleration and dissipates energy. In a line with a front taper, top leg mass reduces not only because it gets shorter, but also because of the taper. That dissipates even more energy. In level lines, or tapered lines that retain more mass in the front, mass reduction doesn't happen as early, more energy is retained. In the case of level lines, LOTS of mass remains in the front, much less energy is dissipated, so much that the line "kicks" at turnover...
Bruce

[VGB]

Hi Bruce, thank you for a considered and detailed answer. I work in the aerospace industry, so we tend to be requirement driven and to a certain extent the cost is the cost and you negotiate any concession. It's interesting to see how the volume market drives your design. I'd like to see your texturing in a wind tunnel.

Regards

Vince

[Bruce Richards]

Hey Bruce,

Thanks for joining.

Here is a hypothetical situation. You arrive at a fishing destination and your reels and lines didn't arrive and the airline had no idea when they will arrive, if ever. The only fly shop for miles for some strange reason doesn't carry SA (hard to believe but try to imagine it). The question is what criteria would you look for in a fly line? Ignore the fish species - what are the things you look for in a fly line?

Hey Walter!
Well, that's a tough question. If I don't know about the fish then I don't know about the flies, which is important to know when choosing a line. I'll assume that means you aren't interested in taper or density.. I'd look for a line with a general purpose, middle of the road taper that would work for a wide range of tasks. I'd avoid a "low/no stretch" line because of potential memory problems. If they don't carry SA I can't get true texturing, which would be a real bummer for me, I LOVE textured lines. But before I bought anything I'd make sure that no one around had brought any extra gear, especially some SA textured lines! (And yes, I know this is partisan, but they really are that good.... )
If I missed your point, let me know...
Bruce

[Bruce Richards]

Hi Bruce, thank you for a considered and detailed answer. I work in the aerospace industry, so we tend to be requirement driven and to a certain extent the cost is the cost and you negotiate any concession. It's interesting to see how the volume market drives your design. I'd like to see your texturing in a wind tunnel.

Regards

Vince

Vince, I wish we could negotiate cost concessions! It costs us the same to set up to run one line as to run 1000. Spreading costs over higher volume is the only way we can control cost. If the market is too small, either the price has to be high, or we make no money, neither works...
When we were developing Sharkskin I was very optimistic that we'd get some sort of wind resistance reduction. We hired Noel Perkins and Univ. of Mich. to do some testing (he has a wind tunnel). He developed a simple test to answer the basic question, and the answer was no, no wind resistance reduction, the texture that works best for friction reduction, floatation and durability is too fine.
Bruce

[VGB]

Thanks again Bruce, I've only seen the barstool textures but it would be a difficult test in a wind tunnel, designing the sting so it doesn't interfere with the test would be very challenging.

Regards

Vince

[Bruce Richards]

Thanks again Bruce, I've only seen the barstool textures but it would be a difficult test in a wind tunnel, designing the sting so it doesn't interfere with the test would be very challenging.

Regards

Vince

Vince, I'm sure Noel's test wouldn't meet your standards, but we had a small budget and only wanted to know one thing. The test was surprisingly simple, but it was obvious when I saw it that we'd get an accurate answer..
Bruce

[Walter]

If I missed your point, let me know...
Bruce

Thanks Bruce - I think you got the basic idea. I think a better way to explain it would be to imagine that the store only had generic brand lines or better still - all of their lines were unlabeled except for their weight and sinking characteristics and were in a large bin that was marked $50/line. What characteristics would you look for to tell you that the line or lines you were choosing were the best ones in the bin, i.e. they would cast and fish well? The owner won't let you try before you buy and this is the only chance you have to get lines before you hit the water.

Obviously someone with your experience would have a good idea of who the line manufacturer was in many cases but maybe these are manufacturers you don't have a lot of experience with.

Sounds like no or low stretch is not desirable - what if they were really stretchy? Are there characteristics you would look for in the surface coating for example? I think we all form opinions of what would make for a good quality line but what would someone with your level of expertise look for? What are the pitfalls of choosing a poor quality line?

Thanks again!

Walter

[Bruce Richards]

Now I get it... If I was able to unspool the line I'd run it through my fingers to get a feel for the taper and pick one that would best suit my application. But, most shop guys won't let you do that. So, if all I had was a coil of line here's what I would do. First, feel the coating to see if it feels very soft, or hard. Very soft lines don't work well in the heat (unless they are textured), very hard lines are stiff and wiry, lots of memory. I'd also get a feel for the lines slickness. Most lines feel slick out of the box. Some really are slick and stay that way due to good chemistry. Some feel slick because they have excess fluids on their surface from the mfg. process. Some feel slick because the mfg. wipes the line with something slippery when they are coiled. I'd be suspicious of any line that was obviously "wet", fluids on my fingers...
I'd take a look at the coil to get a rough guess at head length. Very tough to tell with light lines, but with bigger lines you can get an idea. Remember that the head takes up much more room on the coil than RL, if the line appears to be half head, it's probably actually about 1/3. Of course, that's only helpful if you also know total length.
The situation is largely a crap shoot, but there are some things you can do..
Bruce