Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

[Paul Arden]

"push up from the front leg", this is the breaking of which John spoke. Breaking creates acceleration.

I’m not sure if the front leg is the brake or the back leg being dragged behind. Maybe the front leg is the brake when it straightens. It’s one thing I can’t practise off the roof of my boat

Nice links there. It’s worth remembering of course that the line is not attached to the rod tip but during hauling is actually pulled through the rings, consequently the line is travelling quicker than the rod tip. Line speed is tip speed plus haul speed.

Therefore the haul can actually determine when the loop begins to form and not only the rod tip. In a non-hauled cast it is the rod tip that determines separation of the two legs (RSP). But this does not necessarily apply to a hauled cast. Finish the haul before RSP (or indeed simply slow the haul), with a rod angle such that the tip will deviate below the line path and the separation of rod/fly will occur here and not RSP.

[If on the other hand, the angle of the rod is not such that tip will curve below the line path, but instead such that the tip will rise, then a tailing loop will form. It’s my current belief that the optimal time to stop the haul’s acceleration is at the very point when the tip will deviate down. It’s for this reason that tailing loops can be seen at the world championships, frequently! The longest cast is optimised just inside the border of a tailing loop. I never make fishing casts close to that border, but in championship casting I will be right on the edge.]

Therefore the conclusion is that the haul can have the defining role over loop formation. Often anglers imagine that the haul is merely an add-on to stroke. It is far more than that, if anything it is the stroke that is an supplement to the haul!

Fun fun fun!!

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

"Finish the haul before RSP", is this what forms the wedge and "belly" appearance in your competition distance backcast??

[John Waters]

Agree with your comment about the stroke being a supplement to the haul Paul. In support I cite some very innovative ICSF fly distance casters who focus most of their tournament training time on the haul.

Line release point is key for both single and double handed distance casting.

John

[Paul Arden]

"Finish the haul before RSP", is this what forms the wedge and "belly" appearance in your competition distance backcast??

The point of the loop relates back to when the line immediately behind the rod tip begins to slow - this makes sense because as soon as the line at the rod tip begins to slow the line behind that tries to overtake it hence the fly leg/rod leg transition. The bottom point of the V-wedge relates back to Max Counterflex. And of course the thing morphs. Morphing is much more aggressive/dynamic if the initial loop created by the rod tip is running line and not the head.

I do have one of the better backcasts in this game and I put that down to the haul.

Funny I’m really playing with release points at the moment John.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Hi Phil,

The brake is the left leg for a right handed caster, not the rod hand side leg. The brake side is always the opposite side to that which accelerates.

Hi Paul,

I'm doing the same mate, got 10 months, fingers crossed, to change mine.

John

[Paul Arden]

Hi John,

So here is a question, once we have shifted from back leg to front leg we then launch off the front leg. I can understand how the brake works when we shift to it and block, but when we shift to it and drive off, is that not part of the acceleration? Or at least up until the leg straightens. Or is that launch sequence tied to braking?

And the of course there is “closed stance” for distance (which really felt open) which I did for approx 10 years - to make this work we step onto the right foot (front) and then launch off that leg. Right leg block?

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Fingers and toes crossed there John. I really hope so, mate. What a shitty year it’s been! There is some talk about a Malaysian Open championships in April. It’s something we want to do but it won’t be much fun if no one can get in. April seems unlikely to me at the moment but let’s hope at least we can travel again by August.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Hi Paul,

A great question and one I have tussled with for more than a decade.

"So here is a question, once we have shifted from back leg to front leg we then launch off the front leg. I can understand how the brake works when we shift to it and block, but when we shift to it and drive off, is that not part of the acceleration? Or at least up until the leg straightens. Or is that launch sequence tied to braking?"

This is where I differ from the convention because I do not believe you should launch off the front leg, rather throw over it after it has blocked the right side rotation (for a right handed caster). If you launch off the front leg you have lost the benefit of an optimal brake of the torso acceleration through rotation. The back leg will move forward and end in front of the front leg as a follow through action, but that is after it has initiated the torso rotation. It is not a launch or interactive action, rather a follow through.

I know that is unconventional and opposite to what is current technique but it is the best technique. I say that with absolute conviction even though there are a million casters who will cast further than I do and if any one of those casters competed against me using the lie detector, the results would put my thoughts to shame. As a 70 year old caster that would be the inevitable result, however as a 70 year old student of casting, the more I cast the more convinced I am of the technique's benefits. I engaged my casting coach a decade ago because I wanted to arrest my losing distance because of both my age and a very serious illness. I had no idea if any arrest of my diminishing casting results could be achieved but I was keen to see if I could achieve that goal and maybe even improve a tad. He restructured my stroke from an arm-centric technique to a body-centric technique (my terms). He has never cast a fly rod in his life but is the most qualified casting instructor I have met. I am still trying to get it right and at my age, may never achieve that objective, but studying casting from a throwing point of view at the very least, has kept me in casting and although my long suffering wife of nearly 50 years may disagree, I have enjoyed losing many metres in distance before I started to gain metres. The trade-off to my going backwards to go forward was a much better understanding of technique.

Now that may seem very pretentious to some, if not irrelevant, superfluous and of no interest whatsoever, but it is an honest reflection of my relative recent casting journey. It is not meant to change anyone's view of what they do, when they do it and why they do it, it is just some background as to why I hold a different view about distance technique.

"And the of course there is “closed stance” for distance (which really felt open) which I did for approx 10 years - to make this work we step onto the right foot (front) and then launch off that leg. Right leg block?"

I do not use a closed stance for the same reason a fast bowler(with a few exceptions) or a pitcher or a fielder or a javelin thrower does not use a closed stance. However, with a closed stance you are still accelerating the right side and blocking that acceleration by using the left leg. That block will be most effective if you straighten the left knee. If the left knee is not locked then it does not brake the right side movement as well as it could. One thing I differ from most is that I believe there is a difference between launching in a linear direction from either the back or front leg and using rotation to generate speed and consequently, the back foot moves forward in a linear direction as a follow through of that rotational movement. I believe strongly in the latter, however, irrespective of whether you are generating hand speed through linear generation or hand speed through rotational movement, you need to block or brake that movement instantly and hence the brake leg knee is critical. Look at the left knee of a right hand discus thrower when he has released the discus.

I have probably stuffed this up and confused everybody and I will document my thoughts on technique one day in a far more understandable manner so apologies to anyone who reads this and wonders what the bloody hell is this bloke on about.

Like you mate, I hope all nations can resume normal casting next year and would love to come to Malaysia if I can. Maybe then I can show you what I would like to do with my casting, albeit that I am still very much a student.

Stay well,

John

PS be gentle with me folks, I know not what I say or do.

[Paul Arden]

Interesting John, I think we might have a point of difference here! The reason I push up from the front leg is to drive the line up. Actually that’s not true. The reason I push up is because down the tape it gives me my longest casts! The theory kicked in afterwards - higher launch angle, using the body to assist the turnover of the rod and it’s even a longer stroke.

I can’t always do it of course. The platforms in Norway went down when you pushed up, which put me too close to having a drink to be able compete this way and so I had to “hold back”. The Swedes had an even bigger disadvantage because they have a nimble legs thing going on. (And I know one thing: they wouldn’t all be doing it if it wasn’t working for them).

With regards the left leg blocking with the closed stance step, I don’t see how, since it’s in the air, and if it wasn’t I’d fall over With this stance I have two front foot positions. One is a 90 degrees to the delivery and I finish balanced on the edge of the foot. And the other is at 45 degrees and I finish hopping on tip toes. It’s hard to tell on the picture above but I think I’m on tip toes. In the end I always favoured 90 because it turns the body fully side on.

The closed stance step is interesting. Unfortunately I think closed stance is a terrible name for it. Closed on the backcast, yes, but on the forward it really should be considered “open”. Firstly it’s gives the best haul, it’s longer and it’s closer aligned to the rod plane. But what I like most about it, is something Jon Allen once mentioned to me “it feels like unwinding”. Normally with “open” when we come forward we finish with a twisted torso, especially if we keep our right leg back. However with the closed/Step (or “Hartman Shuffle”!) the torso unwinds on the delivery.

It’s quite different. If it wasn’t for my boat roof having an angle to shed water, I would be training this cast for the next championships (I still might, but I’ll need to build a flat raised casting platform on the roof first). I personally think I was at my best when using this stance. Incidentally there are some Olympic javelin throwers who launch of the right foot (right handed)! I discovered this when researching how they teach javelin.

There more than one way to skin a dingo?

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

Hi guys-

Although my casting is still rudimentary, a fact driven into me today in my 3 hours of practice, I have some knowledge of this topic you are discussing....

Before I start, I must be noted that tracking at higher speeds is difficult....Ok, on with the story

Baseball pitchers, although down hill, provide a very nice example to follow. Mechanics of generating speed are well understood.

First, although some will throw a good fly line with a closed stance (right foot forward right handed caster), I would not recommend this alignment for distance. Dr. Mike Marshall championed this in baseball. He was a former MLB pitcher who would go on to become a doctor. Although it garnered some support for a while, it didn't last because pitchers lost velocity. He claimed it was because he didn't get the best arms but we will never know. If you want to read his book, it's free at this site: https://www.drmikemarshall.com/FreeBook.html.

Nolan Ryan was one of the hardest throwers in the game and he lasted well into his mid 40's without major injury which is unique..Here is his motion over the years...

There is not much of a push off as the front foot starts down the mound. Prior to front foot landing, the rear foot pushes hard towards the target. This drives the lower body rotation while the shoulders resist opening. The throwing arm comes up to what is called by some the "high cock position" where the forearm is pointing straight up. Then, as the lower body rotation reaches the end of its range, the shoulders and torso are pulled into rotation which brings the throwing elbow forward and leaves the forearm to "lay back'". At this point the throwing wrist is also supple and laying back. The grip is light.

As the shoulders square to the target, the upper body then begins a forward motion towards the target. Very shortly afterwards, pressure in the front foot is increased and the front leg begins to shift upwards. This pushing into the ground and upward thrust immediately breaks the body and the arm is propelled forwards. The motion then continues into the follow thru.

Main points-No early push off back foot
Body stays back during rotation
Rear leg pushes hard towards plate just prior to front foot landing
Front foot pushes up strongly to put a stop to the body and the arm flies by

"A correlation coefficient of r = 0.615 for Fx/Weight (and r^2 = 0.378) in the front leg, is definitely significant, and supports the idea of a strong block. In the rear leg, a correlation coefficient of r = 0.517 (and r^2 = 0.267) for Fx supports the idea that a good linear drive towards the home plate will increase velocity as well. Both of these numbers are huge in comparison to what we are used to finding, which is an exciting discovery." Driveline baseball....

Food for thought for those who can control rhythm, timing and tracking.....

Phil

[Phil Blackmar]

Brakes the body, sorry. LOL