Casting - RIO Intouch Outbound Short - Boron rod

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Casting - RIO Intouch Outbound Short - Boron rod

Post Number:#31  Postby VGB » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:23 pm

First one to publish a book wins
IANACI - There’s no such thing as absolutes
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Post Number:#32  Postby Paul Arden » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:36 pm

Hi Vince,

Yeah probably! It’s funny that we seem to think that the casts have been around for a long time but Snaps and Snakes are relatively new. I remember first seeing a Snake Roll in ‘96 when I took STANIC - I know it had been around for longer than that. I believe Simon Gawesworth invented the Snake Roll so it’s actually relatively new. The Kick Spey (an aerielised horizontal semi-snap to position the line after the lift for a Single Spey) Vic Knight showed me one year later. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone else do this particular variation. but I use it quite often in various forms.

I’ve taken the view that the family tree is Single Spey, Double Spey, Snake Roll and Circle C/Snap as the four key casts. And then after that you branch to both shoulders and the small differences between 45 and 90 degrees. There are many different lifts which don’t affect the nomenclature, in other words if you make a Snap Lift as part of your Single Spey it is still a Single Spey. Everything can be aerialised for example aerielise a Double Spey and it’s still a Double Spey. All the funk that we add to the cast doesn’t alter the basic cast’s structure or angle changes. Yes the tree starts to become interesting as I pointed out earlier but if you throw that away and start giving each cast a new name for every minor variation then you’re in for a vineyard that has been allowed to run riot.

Skagit and Underhand are two prime examples of this. But so too are Voodoo Cast, Z-Spey and so on.

Cheers, Paul
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Post Number:#33  Postby VGB » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:35 pm

There should be a classification committee to sort out the taxonomy that is made up of poets and engineers. Any new cast should be sorted according to the taxonomy and awarded a mark of technical difficulty based upon algorithms devised by the engineers. Poets will sort rankings for artistry of performance, composition, choreography, tempo and rhythm in connections, this would expand the competitive sport beyond distance and accuracy. In putting together the system, each cast must have a demonstrable fishing purpose, otherwise it’s just farting about and should be banned as pure frippery.
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Post Number:#34  Postby Paul Arden » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:46 pm

Ha! If IFF have a go it will take 15 years and won’t make any sense :p Freestyle Flycasting with Lumilines, choreographed to music, team entries while standing on a float tube, would have some yardage. Alternatively Lumiline Fight Club - floating down river on a beer barrel trying to cast your opponent in. These events should be at the World Championships :cool:

On an old Board I did actually draw the Spey Tree. Everyone agreed with me and thought it was fantastic.

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Post Number:#35  Postby Flybye » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:03 pm

Re snake roll. Simon G and Robin Gow modernised stuff they picked up from a spey ghillie (who died young) when working on rod developement with Diawa, I believe. Speys, pre formulation by various "casting police" organisations, where always casts to overcome difficulties encountered when actually fishing, pretty sure the SR was a developement of a cast used to re-cover grilse that slashed at the fly. Probably been arround for a lot longer than we think (as have most of what we consider new)
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Post Number:#36  Postby rowch » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:24 pm

Paul Arden wrote:I have time but no cameraman until the end of the week. So you have two buzzers hung between point fly and booby/dry. Another way of fishing the same depth is with spiders and sparse wets. But you still have to turn the point fly over. This is actually an example where I think a long belly line beats trying to shoot a short belly line. I’ll try to set up an identical leader. I’ve always found that the point to middle should be 1.5 times the distance as middle to top/bob. Otherwise for some reason I get tangles.

It will be fun!

Cheers, Paul

I can confirm that I get better roll over with a long bellied line WF #5, providing, as you say, the flies are ordered aerodynamically, with the heaviest on the point - a size 10 shank with a 10mm pink foam cube (same as in image), tied back and front to make a bean shape. I had added a white hair wing for visibility but this was part of the problem - too much drag - now removed to let the foam bean fly.

I'm not sure why I added an extra 2' to the butt section of the leader. Easy enough to remove it. I think because I felt that 6' from line to the top fly was too short and might spook the fish - perhaps not. 14' is easier to handle.

When I say buzzers, I mean Diawl Bach and variations on the same. The #2 fly is usually a black 14 Diawl Bach. #1 as in the image on a 12 - 14 hook. I catch most fish on #1. A little experimenting tends to lean to straggly wets as the better fish takers in this water.

The few strands of deer hair was a simple transformation, added to a Diawl Bach (forgot the beard on this one) and caught some nice trout in rivers and creeks. I check that I have flattened the barb before fishing - missed this one when tying.
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Post Number:#37  Postby Michal Duzynski » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:16 am

Ciao
 So after posting the video, and writing my comment, that this whole FROLLER is just a variation of a RollCast, I have been told:

- if I did not overthrow the line/belly on the surface ( kind of Perry poke) in order for a longer pick up, or creating longer terrestial Dloop I made roll cast NOT Froller.
- if I did not use dbl haul in a back cast ( I think they ment single haul) I made rollcast NOT Froller
-if I did not use dbl haul in forward cast ( again- single haul- and I did), I made rollcast NOT a Froller.
- if I did not cast over 30m I did rollcast NOT a Froller
- If I used 5 or 6wt line I did rollcast NOT a Froller. aparently there is no SENSE in using 5 or 6 wt line with Froller as the cast was invented for 8-9wt lines.
-if I did not use 10foot rod, I did rollcast NOT a Froller.

I say WOW, and I think I will let them have it.
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Post Number:#38  Postby rowch » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:36 am

Clearly not an option. Will leave them to their Froller(k)ing
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Post Number:#39  Postby Paul Arden » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:38 am

:D That’s ridiculous Mike. Not worth wasting you time on.

Rowland, with a similar set up I use a 9ft RÍO trout tapered leader to a 10lb point. These leaders have a long butt section. I put a small silver (sheepgirl) ring in place and 1-2 ft to the first fly. This ultimately will make the leader longer not shorter of course and typically 18-22ft, however because of the nature of the tapered leader it can turn over much longer leaders.

I have another leader system too which Graeme H. has invented. It is a hollow braid tapered leader that is given weight with a varnish-linseed oil mix. This would also work rather well. Looks like Stu will be here Thursday.in which case I can measure some roll casts over the weekend.

Shooting line with a roll cast AND getting a long leader to turn over is very difficult. It’s worthwhile seeing if you can get turnover without shooting line but just having the end of head at the tip ring. If you can get the leader to turn over in this situation all is good. But if even that doesn’t turn over then we have a problem!

Cheers, Paul
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Post Number:#40  Postby David Gianfaldoni » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:34 pm

Hi Mike,
the one above was the answer that gave you one, don't expand it to everyone else. Personally, I've already told you what I think, that's just a dynamic roll. And you're right!
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