How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

Moderator: Paul Arden

How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

Post Number:#21  Postby Morsie » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:55 am

Bernd the insufficient arc issue invariably surfaces when someone wants to take their best distance (say 40) out to 60 feet and they just don't know how to open up the arc because its become grooved in at 40 feet. I see it a lot.
Morsie
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:14 am

How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

Post Number:#22  Postby Paul Arden » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:53 am

It was very common amongst reservoir anglers when I was teaching the UK.
It's an exploration... Bring Flyrods
Flycasting Definitions
Sexyloops Shop
User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11312
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Location: Travelling

How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

Post Number:#23  Postby Graeme H » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:59 am

Morsie wrote:Bernd the insufficient arc issue invariably surfaces when someone wants to take their best distance (say 40) out to 60 feet and they just don't know how to open up the arc because its become grooved in at 40 feet. I see it a lot.

Me too.

I also see it when someone is creeping badly. The creep leads to insufficient arc ...

Cheers,
Graeme
IFFF CCI
User avatar
Graeme H
 
Posts: 1291
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:54 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

Post Number:#24  Postby Morsie » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:19 pm

Yep, when its all boiled down 'creep' is simply insufficient arc leading to improper acceleration.

In all my years of teaching I have only had 3 casters who punched the rod forward to create a tail (not deliberately), lots of translation, no arc. Two were an easy fix the other (very recent) wouldn't listen. I think its important that at CI level when you need to demonstrate a tail through rough acceleration that that you don't just rob angle from the arc. Try and use a 'normal' casting arc, but whack a spike of power into the middle of it. That old mistimed wrist thing again. Its very common among people who are coming to fly casting from lure casting. I call it 'hammer hand', because although they mostly use nail guns these days I used to see it a lot among carpenters
Morsie
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:14 am

How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

Post Number:#25  Postby Bernd Ziesche » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:28 pm

Morsie wrote:Bernd the insufficient arc issue invariably surfaces when someone wants to take their best distance (say 40) out to 60 feet and they just don't know how to open up the arc because its become grooved in at 40 feet. I see it a lot.


Hi Morsie, hi Graeme, hi Paul,
"Insufficient" I think means too small here?

Though, what would be too small of an arc for a 60feet cast?

I easily can cast 60 feet, while rotating my rod between 11am and 1pm. Still not nearly a "too small of an arc for the amount of rod bend" as was said to be the outcome of creep by many instructors. I never get students trying to use (or even doing so) a smaller arc than that. In fact there is always room to learn to well controlled increase force application and use a smaller arc to create the same level of line speed. That is, because nearly no students show up using arcs between 11am and 1pm but using wider arcs instead.

I am having a bit of a hard time believing, that this would be very different in Australia, the USA or on UK stillwaters. :blush: :p So pls. give me further help to understand, what exactly we are talking about here?

To be honest, most students who can't cast 60 feet, but have been casting 40 feet for a while here, use an arc that would allow me to hit 100 feet within that arc. This of course might be different in other parts of the planet. Even though I have been teaching in quite diferent areas.

Do we agree, that a too small arc (for the amount of rod bend) would be one, in which the tip would be forced below SLP on max rod bend position (not done by a too sudden burst of force application of course)?
I would love to see that on video! I have more than 500 videos of beginner students on my computer. Not one shows such a cast. It's all opposite. :blush:
Regards
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.
User avatar
Bernd Ziesche
 
Posts: 1777
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
Location: Whereever the fish are!

How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

Post Number:#26  Postby Lasse Karlsson » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:42 pm

That just gives a concave path Bernd, and not a tail. Then again alot of Instructors keep saying concave gives a tail...

Have some but the line is poorly visible with 40 feet of line and about a 10 degree arc, no tails where thrown though.

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***
User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
 
Posts: 3407
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again

How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

Post Number:#27  Postby Geenomad » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:21 pm

Morsie wrote: 'creep' is simply insufficient arc leading to improper acceleration.


Yep. Cast A requires X amount of acceleration for Y amount of line speed. Less arc means more acceleration (within the smaller arc) for Y line speed. More arc means less acceleration within that same small portion of the arc and the same acceleration overall to produce Y line speed.

There are various "causes" of improper acceleration by a caster. Failing to extend the arc to make longer casts is a likely scenario rather than a direct cause which is what (and all) I understand Peter to be saying.

Cripes. How many more angels are there on this pin head?

Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
Geenomad
 
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:11 pm
Location: Melbourne

How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

Post Number:#28  Postby Morsie » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:03 am

You do get to a certain point in your casting where even with a ridiculously narrow arc you won't throw tails, because you have learned to accelerate appropriately. Doesn't work for 99% of the casting population though.

Too small an arc at 60 feet is when the caster starts throwing tails. Its invariably a style thing Bernd, a stiff locked wrist at the start of the FC, they can't open the arc because their wrist won't let them. Its a self taught "must keep a locked wrist" thing because they saw someone teach it like that on Youtube - no drag, all rotation. I see it a lot, have seen 2 in the last 2 weeks and one just this last weekend on a guy working towards his CI and the other a guy working toward his MCI, both hitting the distance wall through a stiff locked wrists on the BC that don't allow any more arc. Don't worry, I also see arcs that are too wide too, plenty of them.
Morsie
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:14 am

How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

Post Number:#29  Postby Lasse Karlsson » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:11 am

Cool, so if you're good, casting arc isn't the fault, if you're not, it is... Gotcha!

Damn physics, never works the same in different places on our flat earth :D

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***
User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
 
Posts: 3407
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again

How to cast a tailing loop ‘on command’

Post Number:#30  Postby Bernd Ziesche » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:25 am

Paul Arden wrote:I see mainly two occurrences of this. The first is UK Stillwater anglers who have had a history of learning to cast from 10 to just past the vertical - 12,30 - in this case they get quite wide loops for a short carry and as they extend they get tight loops and then either as a consequence of applying too much force within the final casting arc, or sometimes because they've extended the carry, the tip travels a concave path.

The other time I see it is immediately following Creep.


Hi Paul (and everyone),
a caster, who is used to match line speed for short to maybe medium distance within an arc 10 to 12:30, will not need a high force application for this. When increasing line speed for additional distance and thus increasing force application, while keeping this relatively small arc, it easily may get hard to keep force application smooth enough for a proper cast. Instead the caster typically may fall into a too uneven force application.
I agree, the arc though maybe called to be in a size making it hard for the caster to create the desired line speed, while keeping the increase in rod bend during rotation smooth enough.
In my experience the expert caster mostly still would be able to perform a proper cast hitting the desired distance within the very same arc. Thus the arc wouldn't be too narrow in general. It's just, that the caster does not have the abilty to create the desired speed within a relatively small arc by smoothly adding a relatively high force application.
Opening the arc makes it easier to stay smooth enough while matching line speed.

Same with creep. It very often was said to lead into a too narrow arc for the amount of rod bend. The tip was said to be forced below SLP. I don't agree with this. As Lasse said a concave tip path would be the case as long as the rotation is kept smooth enough. I often see students creeping to compensate previous issues. They then end up in a too uneven force application during the next cast. Still mostly the arc was easily big enough for having an expert caster to shape proper loops on the desired distance within the arc being left.

Most slomos I have seen presenting someone throwing tailings, showed a dip in rod tip path not having the tip dipping below SLP on max dip position. If I would want to demo a too narrow arc for the amount of rod bend my first thought would be to take a pretty soft rod, a very small arc and a high force application. Still I think it would cost me significant concentration to demo that.

In my experience it is one to find many current websites stating creep to lead into a too narrow arc for the amount of rod bend (and though the tip droping below SLP) as well as a too narrow arc for the amount of rod bend in general resulting both in tailing loops. But it's another one to get that on tape and proving it.
Again many videos proved me, that using a wider arc made it easier for the student to keep the increase in rod bend smooth enough during rotation of the rod.

Thus I fully agree about an arc being too narrow to support the student's current abilty to smoothly hit the desired line speed.
Having the student widening the arc works well and quickly supports getting back to accelerate smooth enough here. Learning to smoothen out rotation on a higher level of force application within the smaller arc still is another proper option in my experience.

Many years I was teaching an exercise for learning smooth acceleration. That was done within an average sized arc for casting a relatively short (easy controlable) line length in just the line speed it needed. This always worked well for me.
Some years ago I added a second part here, in which I ask the student to increase force application while keeping the size of arc, thus increasing line speed. Having exercised both worked better and made the students aware of how smoothness easily may get out of control when increasing force application within a given size of arc. It also significantly helped me to increase the student's level of casting besides helping to "just" eliminate the causes of all typical issues.
Regards
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.
User avatar
Bernd Ziesche
 
Posts: 1777
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
Location: Whereever the fish are!

PreviousNext

Return to Flycasting

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests