Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

Post Number:#31  Postby Bernd Ziesche » Thu May 09, 2019 7:29 pm

Hi Paul,
I don't think you can easily test, at what point hooks bend and leaders break.
An Atlantic salmon can bite a treble hook in a way leaving one or two bends nearly straight.
Then with incredible strong head shakes these fish can bend hooks or break leaders, which I couldn't when increasing force slowly. Today my friend Hansi lost a carp. The carp pulled the hook straight, when the leader got stucked in a tree. The hook he was using is incredible strong. The "trick" is in the sudden force increase.
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Bernd
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Post Number:#32  Postby johnnybg » Thu May 09, 2019 10:16 pm

Bernd Ziesche wrote:I don't think you can easily test, at what point hooks bend and leaders break.


Hi Bernd, I might misunderstand you, but if you limit the variables and use the same premises when testings how much force is needed to straighten different hooks, then you should be able to get some comparable results.

I believe torque plays a role here too in relation the shape of the hook. I also think that less force is needed to straighten a hook that has only penetrated with the hook point compared to a hook that has penetrated all the way to the hook bend.

I remember a discussion a few years back with one of the employees in a local tackle shop. The guys in the shop had been testing different hooks for salmon fishing by pushing the hook into a small piece of wood. With a leader attached to the hook and to a bucket in the opposite end, they filled the bucket with sand until the hook had changed its shape ever so slightly and had a permanent deformation. Then the bucket was simply weighed on a scale.

If you want to test at what force the hook changes shape when penetrated to the hook bend you could drill a small hole in the wood prior to inserting the hook.

I've tried both of the above setups and the results are quite different. The test is easily carried out, it's repeatable and the results should be comparable and give an idea when a hooks starts to straighten under two different hook ups.
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Fighting fish: Two-handed, single handed and stiffer rods

Post Number:#33  Postby Bernd Ziesche » Fri May 10, 2019 3:48 pm

Hi Johnny,

johnnybg wrote:
Bernd Ziesche wrote:I don't think you can easily test, at what point hooks bend and leaders break.

Hi Bernd, I might misunderstand you, but if you limit the variables and use the same premises when testings how much force is needed to straighten different hooks, then you should be able to get some comparable results.


Having tested my carp hooks, it should be impossible to bend them straight with a fly rod. They bend at around 10 x times the force I'd max in an average fight. The first problem is, that there is often more force acting on the leader + hook as will ever arrive on my rod tip.
Then in regard of a leader to be broken, if I pull slowly with my hands, the leader easily cuts my skin. If instead I pull as fast as I can, I can break pretty heavy leaders without feeling much pressure on my skin. This is especially true when having the thin hook eye acting on my tippet in high speed. The hook eye just cuts the leader. Having a long line in the water, that pressure would not be felt on the rod often. Damping takes place.

Those fishing a lot with cane rods will probably agree, that one looses less fish during the fight. As far as I can tell pressure/force is one, damping effects are another factor in order to land the fish.

I like this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibJeIJedmY8
Tim needs a clark to break his rod. All I need is a short (BUT FAST) pull in opposite rod direction and I'll easily break all of his rods. Fish fight very different compared to such a clark. Yes, different means much less force when slowly moving, but very different when starting strong and fast head shakes in a bad angle.
Very similiar issue in regard of too many variables to easily mirror what really happens in our real fishing world, I think.
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Bernd
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Post Number:#34  Postby Paul Arden » Sat May 11, 2019 7:20 am

Hi Bernd, I agree that sudden loads on leaders can cause knot failure at lower forces than slow load increases. But I’m not sure that applies to hooks?

Since coming here both Flavio and Piffen have been testing stronger hooks for Gourami since the Bonefish hooks that I typically use are a liability. I would prefer that the leader broke before the hook straightened. That would see me at 20lbs which would be a big improvement for the larger fish. I once had a 3KG Gourami eat the popper while I was fishing for Snakehead (they occasionally eat a static popper) - with the Snakehead tackle I could stop it dead.

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Post Number:#35  Postby Bernd Ziesche » Sat May 11, 2019 8:42 am

Hi Paul,
I tried to make some slomos yesterday testing hook bendings comparing different pulling forces and speeds. 250 fps wasnt enough. Not that easy to get it on tape. Now am after salmon for a week. Will try to back up further when I am back. What I can tell so far: Slowly pulling the leader to bend my carp hooks and my hand hurts before the hook gets straight. Fast pulling and the hook bends before I feel any pressure on my hand. Any idea how much Kg your current hooks bend? And how do you test? I was testing force against hook point.
I very much would think about testing power gum from Drennan on gourami! Double it or triple it. You may easily have it work just before the hook bends. Id make a bet that this safes you some catches. It kills the deadly effect of too fast pullings...
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Post Number:#36  Postby Paul Arden » Sun May 12, 2019 7:43 am

They straighten with ~4kg pull around the eye of forceps. Not the best test and not without excitement and danger. Always wear safety specs. Also not a perfect replica for in a fish mouth. But certainly like outside the mouth where they almost all straighten the hook. I can probably apply close to 5KG.

I think powergum would be one more thing to go wrong. What happens when it snags? I’ve never fished it. I like the direct pull on the fish. Stronger hooks would certainly help because I’m fighting to the weak point. Still if you do it properly you should land most of them.

Right must go catch one!

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Post Number:#37  Postby Mangrove Cuckoo » Sun May 12, 2019 1:08 pm

Folks,

While I am all for some numeric data, since my entire career has essentially been about generating numeric data, I don't think getting numbers for rod length and rod angle will tell much. There are too many outside variables like flyline and leader stretch. And even if everyone decided to standardize with something like straight 100# gel-spun line, what really would the numbers mean to us on the angler end of the system?

I have mentioned this before, but if you really want to learn something and surprise yourself, turn the experiment around just a bit. Hang a pulley a few feet in the air and try to lift a bucket with your rod, line, and leader. Instead of pulling and reading the number on the scale, use the scale to weigh the contents of the bucket first. Then step back and lift the bucket with a known amount of weight with different rod angles.

I guarantee you will be surprised. And once you have done it, you will now know what it feels like to put that much pressure on the system.

This is not my invention. It is a common practice for tarpon tournament anglers. It is the only way to learn how to put maximum pressure on a fish (assuming a straight line pull). Line belly and fish surges are other components, but this is the starting point.

However... I strongly suggest you start with a very conservative amount of weight in the bucket... like maybe one kg! You can always add more.

Once again, I guarantee you will be surprised at what it takes to lift even one kg.

Oh yeah... be careful! I assume no responsibility for broken tackle.
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Post Number:#38  Postby Mangrove Cuckoo » Sun May 12, 2019 1:23 pm

Folks,

As to hook bending tests...

Johnnybg above, I think, hits the nail on the head!

I have had small tarpon open a hook of the same make and model that I commonly land very large tarpon on. It is all about how and where the hook penetrates. Sometimes you get it all the way to the bend, other times, especially with hard mouth fish, only the point of the hook penetrates. The angle of pressure on the hook material is very different in these scenarios.

Testing hooks being held in some device at their bend will only generate "best case" numbers. And depending on hook shape, some hooks with weaker wire might even test higher!

Tempering has a lot to do with apparent hook strength. Some of the newer hard tempered hooks from Japan resist bending much more than traditional hooks... but they are more likely to break than bend. It is a trade off.
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Post Number:#39  Postby Paul Arden » Mon May 13, 2019 4:26 am

The nice thing about the scales test :p is that you can also be the one holding the scales! In fact you don’t even need scales but can hold the line.

I did the bucket (empty watering can in my case) standing up a ladder for a different reason - manyvyears ago to show the different bends during flycasting with the idea that a rod could unload during the casting stroke because of the angles involved.

However here I use the rod angles not to teach people how to fight with the rod but instead how to fight without it. Trying to use the rod here to fight the bigger fish normally leaves you fighting snags. If you are using tackle that gives way at 30-35lbs then the sort of equipment and rod technique we normally use is not going to get even close to testing it. And it’s a lot of work to go through just to lose a fish to a snag.

The result of this has been that I’m left with the conclusion that the purpose of increasing the rod angle between it and the fish is to reduce force.

Cheers, Paul
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