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Progressive rod?

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Progressive rod?

#11

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:28 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:27 pm


Very very generalised. SP+ we would have called tip Acton. I’ve cast Cane rods that would certainly be considered butt action (also others being tip action too). HT rods I consider progressive. Erm “fast progressive” :D

Cheers, Paul
:D

The SP+ was the same as the TCR and the TCX and probably the newer ones.. Remember Magnus measured the TCR as a really "progressive rod", tip 2 wt and butt 7 wt and the other pieces between that.. In the CCS system...

Love all the rod bollocks :p

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Lasse
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Progressive rod?

#12

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:32 pm

Viking Lars wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:45 pm
Cuppa? Tea or coffee? It'll have a bearing on my decision to buy or not :-).

Lars
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Graeme H
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Re: Progressive rod?

#13

Post by Graeme H » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:41 am

Paul Arden wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:27 pm
HT rods I consider progressive. Erm “fast progressive” :D

Cheers, Paul
I have trouble describing the action of the HTs. I've settled on "compound action", since there are definite points in the blank where the action changes. I believe that's what makes them feel different to the other "fast medium" rods out there. "Better different", not "weird different".

I got into a big argument on another forum once about "parabolic actions". The term was first used to describe cane rods in the early 1900s. The rods had a strong hinge point just above the grip, so that if the rod was loaded and held horizontally, the rod looked like a full-length flat parabola. (Paul used the term "butt action" above, but that means something VERY different to me! :D)

These days, people are using the term "parabolic action" to describe a rod that bends more at the tip than the butt, but as far as I can see, any tapered rod does that. It's not a very useful description, so I stay away from using it myself.

Cheers,
Graeme
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Paul Arden
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Re: Progressive rod?

#14

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:02 pm

Lots of butt action on the triathlon today. :p
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Progressive rod?

#15

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:57 pm

Thats why you where faster last year?

;-)

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Merlin
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Re: Progressive rod?

#16

Post by Merlin » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:56 am

Hi Carlos

« Progressive » is a word used to identify rods which have an intermediate action (neither tip, neither butt), so it represents a number of rods.

In the following graphic, shape curves are illustrated for various rods, and in the old times, a semi parabolic would fit that qualification.
Shape curves.JPG
The consequence on casting: there is a trend for having a larger loop as the action goes from tip to butt. However, this has not been completely confirmed by observation: other parameters, like the caster’s style, do influence loop size.

Line speed is somehow influenced by the type of action, but this is barely noticeable up to medium casts.

Merlin
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Re: Progressive rod?

#17

Post by Magnus » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:16 am

Hi Merlin

Always interested in the idea of a rod with a butt action - I agree with your graphic description of the curve but that's not what was described in old books. As far as I can get from talking to blank makers, butt action means a rod which is as near untapered as they can do. If you graph the curve for an untapered rod you get a bend near the fixed end and almost no curve at the tip, which is what the old sketches of butt actioned rods look like.

I think it helps to explain what taper causes. In terms of mass an untapered rod has a mighty heavy tip which causes wide loops. The tip portion of the modern graphite rod in your diagram is incredibly low mass compared with the other rods there, which enables tighter loops.

The terms you have chosen start I think from cane blank making - parabolic and semi-parabolic. Early tubular rods popularised a couple of other terms, fast taper (wide butt to a fine tip) slow taper (narrow butt to a less fine tip) they could be tapered anywhere between those extremes. These terms, faster and slower taper, are less common now, I like them because they are from the way the blank was made using a tube formed from one material - no option of higher modulus at the butt for example.

Finally, just as a matter of fact I think I've measured carbon rods which bend to all of these curves. The older curves, parabolic and semi-parabolic, are very unusual and alway 'in-house' blanks or blanks made in the UK (or US) specifically for one manufacturer.

Magnus
"Actually I can't because you are right! " Paul Arden 8/6/2019

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Re: Progressive rod?

#18

Post by Magnus » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:21 am

Paul

" HT rods I consider progressive. Erm “fast progressive” :D"

I'd sort of agree with you.

How would you describe your memory of Loomis IMX and Sage XP?

In my mind the XP typifies where we have headed, caught the trend for extremely light tips. By comparison Loomis IMX tip was heavier and stiffer, the rod curved deeper.

Magnus
"Actually I can't because you are right! " Paul Arden 8/6/2019

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Re: Progressive rod?

#19

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:10 pm

IMX was a bit more user friendly.

Ok so I think that the best technology of rods is our current technology which is 20-30yrs old with a few plus or minuses. Basically it’s the same. So it’s mostly or all about design. Maybe there is some new funky technology out there that we - the best casters - don’t know about 😂😂 well how the fuck are they going to tune it up
- with different epoxies?

The way AFFTA went was nuts! Went towards heads and not sbort-lining. Might as well produce spinning tackle. It’s all about getting a head out the tip and throwing distance? That’s not how I fish. Never did. Never will.

Fishing is mostly about 4-12 metres and doing that efficiently. That’s where you can see. That’s where you have control. Learn to do that properly first and worry about what you can’t see later :D

Cheers, Paul

Most “Rod designers” haven’t put in the time fishing! I’m around 8,500 days. I think that counts for something.
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Merlin
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Re: Progressive rod?

#20

Post by Merlin » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:25 am

Hi Magnus

Illustrations of rod curves in books are exaggerated for sake of understanding. Below you can see the deflection shape of a rod loaded with 20 times the reference mass of its line. There is no kind of "hinge" at the handle level, and the rod is competely flat all along its third starting from the butt end.
Shape Para16.JPG
Shape Para16.JPG (18.9 KiB) Viewed 84 times
Rod profile Para16.JPG
Rod profile Para16.JPG (25.18 KiB) Viewed 84 times
This rod is a Young Para 16, and the example of a parabolic rod I took in my earlier post is a Payne Parabolic 214.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

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