PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!

Stroke length in relation to style

Moderators: Paul Arden, stesiik

Post Reply
nicholasfmoore
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:41 pm

Stroke length in relation to style

#1

Post by nicholasfmoore » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:45 pm

Hi all,

What are some of the main reasons for increasing our stroke length with a pushing style? I can think of one disadvantage of reaching 'way' back and 'way' forward. Tracking. It would be very difficult to keep the rod tip in a straight line.

Why can a short stroke length result in loop problems for longer lines?

Why do we need to build speed with a longer stroke? Steve R has what i would describe as a 'compact' style, and so does Jerry S. I do know a lot of people cast in a similar style to Lefty, and i think the long stroke length in that situation would help to suck up slack in the system. Please correct me if i am wrong.

What are some of the problems with casting with a long stroke length and a very tight arc for a short length of line, do we not do it simply because we don't need to, or is there more to it?

All the best

Nick
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

John Waters
Posts: 813
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Stroke length in relation to style

#2

Post by John Waters » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:07 pm

You are correct Paul, it is about slinging the body, not the line. Also agree with your comment about lowering your centre of gravity at the start of the forward stroke through the back leg.

It all comes down to what the body does. Pity mine won't do as it is told haha.

John

jarmo
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:48 pm

Re: Stroke length in relation to style

#3

Post by jarmo » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:00 am

nicholasfmoore wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:45 pm
What are some of the main reasons for increasing our stroke length with a pushing style? Why can a short stroke length result in loop problems for longer lines?
This post really hit a nerve, because this is basically what I have been experimenting with for the last couple of months. (BTW, quite a few interesting threads here lately.) Note: I am not a competition caster but an instructor.

I use pushing to increase stroke length to keep loops tight. I do this in a very specific task: increase length of carry with a relatively slow rod (Scott G), no haul. I can increase carry without pushing, but that will open up my loops: without a longer stroke, I need to smoothly rotate quite a bit, which results in bigger loops.

In other words: a long stroke allows me to keep rotation very small.
nicholasfmoore wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:45 pm
I can think of one disadvantage of reaching 'way' back and 'way' forward. Tracking. It would be very difficult to keep the rod tip in a straight line.
Tracking can be an issue. Another issue is smooth power production, which for me is very easy with a short stroke (by what some call "pulling," that is, using shoulder muscles). In a long stroke, power production needs to come from a larger combination of muscles and joints.

Body rotation can produce smooth power over long distances, but as I have said here before, my lower back does not appreciate it when casting for hours.
nicholasfmoore wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:45 pm
What are some of the problems with casting with a long stroke length and a very tight arc for a short length of line, do we not do it simply because we don't need to, or is there more to it?
I am not sure what you mean. Unless I need to cast larger loops, I strive for the tightest possible loops, and use as long a stroke as necessary, regardless of length of line.

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 1
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Stroke length in relation to style

#4

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:43 pm

Good posts!

The purpose of lengthening the Stroke with Drag is to remove any slack, establish momentum in the direction of the cast and to make better use of how our bodies naturally throw. The longer the carry the more important this is. It also helps straighten the tip path at the beginning of the stroke and saves the acceleration through rotation until we really need it - ie at the end of the stroke, giving us potentially a higher rate of acceleration.

If conversely, you look at a very short cast, say casting just the leader, I for one use very little stroke length, if any, instead I keep my hand out in front of my body and just cast with the wrist.

There is of course one final consideration with long strokes. Often the best place to finish the previous stroke is not the ideal place to start the next stroke. For example a 90’ backcast can end up leaving your arm pointing directly behind you. So quite a lot of the beginning of the next Stroke is really just a repositioning move (ie Slide [drag]) which is used to move the rod hand into a better starting point.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

nicholasfmoore
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:41 pm

Re: Stroke length in relation to style

#5

Post by nicholasfmoore » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:37 pm

Hi Paul and Jarmo,

Thank you both for your thoughts!
This post really hit a nerve, because this is basically what I have been experimenting with for the last couple of months.
It's odd isn't it, incidentally i can carry quite a length of line just using my wrist, and keeping my elbow tucked into my body, albeit side casting, and not having a vertical rod. I quite like the feeling of this, do you think instructors don't teach this because you are basically relying on timing for the cast, and if it's not controlled it could cause a tailing loop?

If i'm going for out and out distance i do use a long stroke length and translation, for shorter cast's i use an elbow forward style (à la Mel Krieger). Would you say that increasing stroke length is a necessity in all styles? I do know that drag isn't 'paramount' for all styles, or is it? :sorcerer:
I am not sure what you mean. Unless I need to cast larger loops, I strive for the tightest possible loops, and use as long a stroke as necessary, regardless of length of line.
Hi Jarmo. I've recently just tried this, for example with a rod length of line (tight arc etc etc) i cast with a very VERY short stroke length, however, if i increase the stroke length and keep the arc the same, not changing the force/speed etc i can achieve the same result, a tight loop :D so do we simply not use a massive stroke length for a short length of line because we don't need to? I think Paul has answered my points, but would be interesting to hear your views on this. Have you tried this? It's quite fascinating.

Thank you both, these were exactly the answers i was searching for!

All the best

Nick
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
Posts: 4068
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again
Contact:

Re: Stroke length in relation to style

#6

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:49 pm

Just a quick question, was this split of from a different thread?

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

nicholasfmoore
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:41 pm

Re: Stroke length in relation to style

#7

Post by nicholasfmoore » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:58 pm

Hi Lasse,

It was kind of a 'carry on' from the "\|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke" but i started a new topic for this one :D

All the best

Nick
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 1
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Stroke length in relation to style

#8

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:01 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:49 pm
Just a quick question, was this split of from a different thread?

Cheers
Lasse
No! John posted in the wrong thread :p
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

User avatar
Lasse Karlsson
Posts: 4068
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 pm
Location: There, and back again
Contact:

Re: Stroke length in relation to style

#9

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:11 pm

Phweew was slightly worried 😂


An advantage of increasing stroke length, less work for same outcome. Its easier to be precise even if tracking can be an issue, it's usually a bigger issue with the shorter stroke as it has to be faster.
Now a really short line, it just feels a bit ridiculous, to move a long way when it can be done easily shorter. (also opposite with work done, now it becomes more work for same outcome)

A long line needs more velocity then a short one, to get a long line up in velocity over a short stroke requires a lot of skill, force and smoothness, miss out on one and trouble come looking.

Regarding not teaching ye old book/one pound note under the elbow restrictive casting technique, is because just because it can be done when one is good, isn't the same as its food for someone not good. Typical beginner needs the stroke length for a reasonable cast that most experienced can throw double or triple as far. Most competition casters notice the difference in carry between a relaxed nice long carry and a all out breaking sweat balancing on a knifes edge trouble lurking around to happen length of line isn't more than a few feet...

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

nicholasfmoore
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:41 pm

Re: Stroke length in relation to style

#10

Post by nicholasfmoore » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:58 pm

Hi Lasse,

Thanks for that, that's a cracking explanation 😀

All the best

Nick
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

Post Reply

Return to “Flycasting”