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Too much power!

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nicholasfmoore
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Too much power!

#1

Post by nicholasfmoore » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:09 am

Hi all,

What would you say are the problems of using too much power in a cast? I have seen anglers use the same 'forceful' approach no matter the wind speed.

The only thing i can think of is that using too much power with a short length of line would lead to open loops, because a lot of force is hard to 'stop'

Interested to hear your thoughts as always. :cool:

All the best

Nick
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

stesiik
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Re: Too much power!

#2

Post by stesiik » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:45 pm

Hi Nick!

The main thing is how you add the power in my opinon. A good caster does not get an open loop just by adding power, when a good caster hits it hard the product is just a very fast and very sharp loop. To open up the loop you need to add something that "sprays" your fly line all around.

I know energy does not have direction but here is an analogy that I like a lot (I think its Mel Krieger?).

Imagine you grab a paint brush, dip it into paint and do a fly casting forward cast motion with it. If you apply the power like a windshield wiper, (evenly, abrupt, early rotation/rotation only) that paint will spray everywhere (the paint will spray in all directions up and forward). The more power you use the worse the paint will spray all around.

Now dip that paintbrush again in the same pain but this time "direct/throw" the paint better (start slow/end fast, delay most of the rotation). That paint will now fly mainly forward. Now when you add power that paint will not spread much more, it will just fly faster and further forward.

Best Regards
Stefan

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Paul Arden
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Re: Too much power!

#3

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:23 pm

Hi Nick,

Too much force at the wrong point can also cause tails. I don’t know if too much power (better: force) is really the problem in as much as inappropriate use/application of force, which most certainly is. It’s not simply too much or too little either, it’s also how this is applied. Generally speaking I see a lot of problems with excess force being applied through translation, but it’s difficult to get it wrong when the force is applied through rotation.

A broader answer to your question would be to look at efficiency. Excess force might mean that you have to stop fishing prematurely and lie down in a field to recover.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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nicholasfmoore
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Re: Too much power!

#4

Post by nicholasfmoore » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:31 pm

Hi Both,

Thank you for your thoughts!
A good caster does not get an open loop just by adding power
Absolutely :) do you think hitting a cast too early causes a 'throwing' motion which translates to a convex path of the rod tip? Interesting that you mentioned the paintbrush as a teaching aid, i do think this is very good and i use it all the time :) I don't know who invented the concept to be honest with you, bravo to whoever did! It's good that it works for a pushing and pulling style. Incidentally for delayed rotation do you guys show it by having a long length of line on the ground behind you, and then apply the force at the end? Then explain that drag helps to get the line moving in the direction you want, and rotation contributes to max tip speed/straight line? After all, we have to keep the line in the air :)

Thanks for that, Paul. Incidentally do you think all tailing loops come down to an inappropriate application of force? I'm of the opinion it does.

Ahh, i've tried this on distance casting with translation, keeping translation at a constant speed and applying the vast majority of the force at the end/rotation. What is the idea of a gradual acceleration for students in regards to start slow finish fast, go slow end quick etc etc, is it more down to increasing rod tip speed gradually, or to try and get students out of the habit of a jerky force application causing tails?
A broader answer to your question would be to look at efficiency. Excess force might mean that you have to stop fishing prematurely and lie down in a field to recover.
Completely forgot about that one so thanks!

All the best

Nick
Nick M

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nicholasfmoore
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Re: Too much power!

#5

Post by nicholasfmoore » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:51 pm

Additionally, how does moving the rod too fast reduce it's ability to flex effectively? :)
Nick M

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Re: Too much power!

#6

Post by Geenomad » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:22 pm

Hi Nick
It's about efficiency, not how much force is used so much as where the force used is directed. Won't repeat the mechanics analysis other than to say compare a windscreen wiper action to sound technique with translation and late rotation. Straight(er) lines rule.

Cheers
Mark
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Re: Too much power!

#7

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:54 am

Hi Nick,

I think everything in casting can be resolved down to appropriate/inappropriate application of Force. I fondly recall many discussions with Rick and Bill on this topic many years ago. :laugh: In fact you can resolve the 5 Essentials to any one essential (since it’s a model). Some resolve them to SLP, me personally I’d resolve to Force.

Too much force too early will usually result in a tail not an open loop, but it does depend how it is applied. If it’s mostly translation then it’s a tail. If it’s mostly rotation and that rotation continues to build then it’s the open loop you’re observing here. In this second case Drag helps straighten the tip path at the beginning of the Casting Stroke.
Additionally, how does moving the rod too fast reduce it's ability to flex effectively?
I think I wrote this once and now believe it to be a mistake.

Cheers, Paul
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nicholasfmoore
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Re: Too much power!

#8

Post by nicholasfmoore » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:23 pm

Hi Paul,

That's a good one! I do think the force application is one of THE hardest aspect to get across, and getting people to 'stop' the rod and not fizzle through, or 'follow through' especially if the student has been playing sports like tennis etc.

I'm with you, Paul. Someone the other day had a fantastic back casts, i'm talking 6" between the rod and fly leg. On the forward cast he would always throw a tail which is a damn shame. He was waiting for that 'pull' on the back cast (who started this thing by the way?!) so in essence he's starting the forward cast with a rod that's already bent, so it's harder to be smooth. I showed him drift at that point. :)

I have seen the open loop problem, especially when they cast into the wind, they put in more force and the hand travels in a semi circle for some reason. :)

I put a lefty film on today whilst i was working and one thing stood out that he said "the faster you speed up and stop, the faster the rod throws the line" what are your thoughts on this? The problem i think with his 5 principals is that it really works for that 'side arm' style. If you cast like Mel Krieger then i don't think it's very helpful.
I think I wrote this once and now believe it to be a mistake.
I've heard murmurs of this recently and just thought i'd put the question to the board :)

All the best

Nick
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Too much power!

#9

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:44 pm

nicholasfmoore wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:23 pm


I'm with you, Paul. Someone the other day had a fantastic back casts, i'm talking 6" between the rod and fly leg. On the forward cast he would always throw a tail which is a damn shame. He was waiting for that 'pull' on the back cast (who started this thing by the way?!) so in essence he's starting the forward cast with a rod that's already bent, so it's harder to be smooth. I showed him drift at that point. :)
That tiny bit of bend happening in a fraction of a second surely wasn't the problem?

Cheers
Lasse
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nicholasfmoore
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:41 pm

Re: Too much power!

#10

Post by nicholasfmoore » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:13 pm

No it wasn't, he was hitting the forward cast straight away, but told me he was waiting for the 'pull' which i think was a subconscious move to go :D

All the best

Nick
Nick M

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