Statements that make you go Hmmm? #1

[Paul Arden]

Hi Lasse,

You don’t need to know how a combustion engine works to drive a car. You don’t even have to know how it works when teaching someone to drive. I’m not even sure that most drivers even want to know how it works, they’re just happy to be able able to sit in traffic jams listening to The Stranglers.

I think the question really - for me anyway - is “why does teaching the hard stop get results” and that to me, I agree, is a form of power-snap. But if you use the words “power” and “snap” in the same sentence between students you are going to get very different results

Micro-second wrist, power-snap, speed-up-and-stop, hard stop, flip the tip. I think they all achieve the same thing, between different people.

If the hammer works, by calling it a screwdriver, then I’m happy to use it, even though I know it’s really a hammer. I think instructors should know the difference but with students I’m much more interested in getting quick results.

It’s a question I popped up on the Board a few years ago to instructors, when I asked if they think that understanding the physics of Flycasting gave them benefit in their casting? Graeme said for him it did. For me personally I can’t think of one example where the physics came before the cast. For me the act of casting has always come first and the physics followed - pull-back, torque twist, 170, hauling after butt-stop and so on. I find the understanding “why” quite fascinating but it doesn’t make me a better flycaster. More feeling makes me a better caster.

Now I recognise that some may be different and need to understand the physics first but I can put my hand up and say I’m not one of them! Or at least it’s never happened that way so far...

So the very words “stop harder” can get results. When we analyse deeper it’s because of the acceleration to the stop. Misleading maybe. But if it works then why throw it away?

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

I remember that question, and I answered like Graeme..

Why use words that you actually know are wrong? Just because the field is riddled with them doesn't mean they are the fastest way, as you so elegantly say, you don't need to know any of that to actually cast, so why in the world use the wrong ones?

And yeah "stop harder" might work for some, but that's because they don't actually do what's told...

Cheers
Lasse

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Jarmo

Did he throw tight loops with little force when doing the triangle?

No, not to the degree I would have wanted to. And usually I would have introduced the idea of a "stop" at that point. But I wanted to see what happens later.

It got worse going with a tilted plane. Which - in my limited experience - is a general trend: movements become larger and less controlled when making the switch from horizontal to tilted.

Yeah, the movement away from horisontal to tilted usually leads to that, but why go there before having accomplished the target of using the triangle?

Why did you talk about arc?

To avoid the windscreen wiper effect. Which was certainly there at first.

I gave him reference points for the sides of the triangle, but I made it sure that I never mentioned the stop. I showed him the stop, but never said it out loud. I just said that the one of the sides of the triangle is here (reference point), and the other side here (another reference).

When I finally introduced the stop I gave reference points and asked to stop there.

Instead of using sides, use points for where the tip of the rod goes. Instead of arc, just move the points further from each other or closer. Two cones work perfectly, and you can name them a and b and the caster is standing at c.
This also can give you a visual for the student when moving the rod up to the tilted plane. Trick becomes vertical, there's a fix for that, but I'll let you figure it out

What where your reason for throwing frisbees?

Sorry for the confusion: we were not throwing actual frisbees. I was testing that analogy to introduce late rotation (not my usual analogy, but I am trying out different things).

[/quote]

Ah, ok makes sense, the inverted rodbutt reelseat clicking is a great tool for that!

Cheers
Lasse

[Graeme H]

I've pretty much fully adopted Morsie's analogy of a piece of pizza representing the casting arc, adding a twist or two that helps me teach more effectively. (It's fun and easy to remember.)

"Think of how much we rotate the rod as a piece of pizza. We can tune the size of the loop by choosing the amount of pizza we feed it. Fat loops need to go on a diet, so feed them less pizza."

While I'm standing with my student, I will tell them to "use less pizza, less pizza, less pizza, ah - now we're there!"

Then as we strive for more distance, I tell them we need to shift the pizza through space and we need a bit more pizza. "We need to deliver the pizza before we eat it!"

For a short cast, we tip the pizza forward to aim the crust corners up and down.

If there are tails, the first thing I try is asking them to give it more pizza. Next option (if that didn't work) is to get them to nibble at the pizza rather than wolf it down. After that, I'd need to change tack and move away from this analogy.

The upshot of this is that I never need to mention a stop when I teach a beginner or intermediate caster. I may need to use another drill to control the power they impart. Or I may talk about pull-back or torque thrust or rod leg tension with the more advanced casters, all of which do indeed relate to a "stop", but the word "stop" doesn't come into it often from me.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Paul Arden]

so why in the world use the wrong ones?

Because in certain situations I believe they are the best ones.

Have never used Pizza slices, I have heard about Mike’s Coffee filter. I just talk about casting arc, tip path and targets. I often mention a V to describe the angle change between stops. I use no analogies for this.

Variable casting arc is an interesting one. Often I wait until there is a problem before introducing it. I’m lucky at the moment and have students for five days or a week. It’s interesting that while it’s a key concept to understand, it’s not something that needs to be introduced early on. I see it more important for Intermediate casters. I was personally unaware of it for my first 15 years of FFing and my first few years as an instructor. When I first started I taught 12.30 to 10

Cheers, Paul

[Merlin]

The stop isn’t like hitting a wall when we cast, it’s actually an abrupt acceleration leading to the stop

Agree Paul, this is the caster’s constrain due to joint rotations: I think this is what can be described by a “snap”. Large deceleration means large acceleration for a given joint. This acceleration is responsible for another gain in speed. It is even likely that most of the gain of the “hard” stop comes from there (as discussed in the twist thread). I shall have another look with rotation speed generation to get an idea.

For those who can read biomechanics publications, here is the one I found about fly casting: J.R. Allen, Montana State University, May 2006 thesis “Upper extremity and joint coordination of fly casting”. I still not fully digested the paper content.

Merlin

[Merlin]

Paul,

Herer is a quick check for a fishing cast (based on Matthias’s cast simulation): timing remains the same, I changed the input for the wrist in the model.
Reference point
Arc = 86.7 deg; min decel = -4500 deg/s2; V tip max = 23 m/s
A hard stop
Arc = 86.7 deg; min decel = -5900 deg/s2; Vtip max = 22.3 m/s

It looks curious, since the tip speed goes down, but this corresponds to a fit problem between the cast input and rod/line speed, just see what happens if the cast is a little bit smoother (as recommended by Lasse):
Soft stop
Arc = 86.7 deg; min decel = -3500 deg/s2; V tip max = 23.6 m/s

This is consistent with the fact that the rod is on the medium slow side in terms of speed. Now we consider a “snap”:
Snap
Arc = 97.1 deg; min decel = -5900 deg/s2; V tip max = 26.4 m/s

Conclusion: it confirms that a “snap” = higher acceleration and deceleration brings the higher benefit and this result confirms that most of the gain comes from the extra acceleration induced by the snap. This corresponds to a slightly larger arc (same timing for the cast).

Merlin

[Paul Arden]

Thanks Merlin,

Of course it’s also important to mention that we don’t always want maximum speed. In fact with the sort of level we are teaching with the “hard stop” arguably we almost always want less force, particularly throughout the stroke and most probably a smaller arc too.

I also think that there is more that can be achieved once awareness is drawn to the acceleration at the end of the stroke. This “power-snap” can be slower, or with forward movement, lifting/swoop, twist, pull-back. It can also just be a nudge of the rod or even “stopless”.

Most people start the rapid acceleration too early. I think it should happen after MCL. But we’re moving up another level there where the concept of “hard stop” needs to be changed with the student - in fact as soon as the haul is involved I think that the “hard stop” needs to go.

Cheers, Paul

[jarmo]

Did he throw tight loops with little force when doing the triangle?

No, not to the degree I would have wanted to. And usually I would have introduced the idea of a "stop" at that point. But I wanted to see what happens later.

It got worse going with a tilted plane. Which - in my limited experience - is a general trend: movements become larger and less controlled when making the switch from horizontal to tilted.

Yeah, the movement away from horisontal to tilted usually leads to that, but why go there before having accomplished the target of using the triangle?

Because this was an experiment in no-stopping: I moved from horizontal to tilted after I thought I had done my best horizontally without stopping. I wanted to see how the situation would develop.

I emphasize that this is not the way I usually do it. I wanted to test the idea of not stopping presented here, and had the chance to do it. I was the only one who suffered from this: at the end the kid was casting fine and smiling wide.

Why did you talk about arc?

To avoid the windscreen wiper effect. Which was certainly there at first.

I gave him reference points for the sides of the triangle, but I made it sure that I never mentioned the stop. I showed him the stop, but never said it out loud. I just said that the one of the sides of the triangle is here (reference point), and the other side here (another reference).

When I finally introduced the stop I gave reference points and asked to stop there.

Instead of using sides, use points for where the tip of the rod goes. Instead of arc, just move the points further from each other or closer. Two cones work perfectly, and you can name them a and b and the caster is standing at c.

My "reference points" were for this, but I did not mention explicitly that the "tip goes there."

This discussion interests me in two different ways.

• I would like to understand how you teach without stopping, and what is the benefit of that approach. This is the cost of isolation: if I were closer, I would take a drive and have a look.
• In general, I still do not understand why we should get rid of the stop. What is the harm? Is stopping and blocking bad for you? In what way? How is this related to 170 degrees? Does the amount of line carried / type of line play a role? Would you teach the same way if the line were a DT as if it were a shooting head?

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Jarmo

So let me get this straight, you where puzzled about something and then applied it halfway, moved on too soon and ended up going back to where you normally have succes?

Seems obvious where the fault was

We should stop trying to teach something every human being already know how to apply, but are being told wrong by instructors not knowing what they are doing.
Paul likes the approach of teaching something for beginners and intermediates and then tell them it's wrong once they get good... I fail to see the logic there, but I am quite dense

A DT is just a long shooting head, why would I teach different?

Do you like the shock waves Andy produces with his stop and block pantomime, and why aren't they there when he makes a real cast?

Cheers
Lasse