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Double Haul increasing rod flex?

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nicholasfmoore
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Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#1

Post by nicholasfmoore » Mon May 11, 2020 3:14 pm

Hi all,

This is carrying on from a conversation i had with Paul last week (sorry it's late, Paul!)

Ok, so i know that this topic has been talked about a lot, and i do know that the reason the haul mostly works is because we increase the lines velocity with the hauling hand.

Why does hauling increase loop size when it's applied through the stroke for some students? Is it the same as applying force too early with the rod hand?
Now, i know counter flex plays a big part in loop shape, and Paul kindly switched me onto this with the haul, as to why the haul reduces loop size. Would be very interested to hear your thoughts and to have a great solid description on how the double haul works, and what it does to the rod. :)

All the best!
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#2

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Mon May 11, 2020 7:55 pm

nicholasfmoore wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:14 pm


Why does hauling increase loop size when it's applied through the stroke for some students?

All the best!
Hi Nick

Does it?
To be honest I havent experienced that, what I have seen sometimes is that when starting to learn the haul, all attention goes to the haul and the rodhand ends up flopping about, creating larger loops.

Main benefit of hauling is the direct increase in line velocity. Thats why its important to time it right, otherwise its just moving line. It does affect the rod, but since the rod is unbending when we really want to haul, its just slowing that inbending down, creating a straighter tippath , which is cool for directing our energy in the desired direction.

Some advocate for the haul to remove slack, that would be the last thing you would want with a haul that is limited in length, where a long lever is close by to do the job better 😉

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Lasse
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Geenomad
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#3

Post by Geenomad » Tue May 12, 2020 2:22 am

Another nice thing about hauls is that they help share the Work load between hands, thus reducing the effort needed by the rod hand to produce a cast to a given distance, thus enhancing net Force in the intended direction of the cast by reducing (the risk of) over rotation which applies force in competing directions. Hauls contribute to efficiency. :cool:

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Mark
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nicholasfmoore
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#4

Post by nicholasfmoore » Wed May 13, 2020 10:12 am

Hi all,
Does it?
To be honest I havent experienced that, what I have seen sometimes is that when starting to learn the haul, all attention goes to the haul and the rod hand ends up flopping about, creating larger loops.
Hmm, maybe they are timing the start of the haul with the start of the stroke? A common UK thing is for anglers to immediately hit the forward cast as soon as it's straightened. If they already do this and time the haul at the same time, it seems to make it worse :) My other question would be, why does hitting the forward cast too early cause an open loop? I know drag helps straighten the tip path, but is it the hand 'lobbing' round in a semi circle? :???:
Main benefit of hauling is the direct increase in line velocity. Thats why its important to time it right, otherwise its just moving line. It does affect the rod, but since the rod is unbending when we really want to haul, its just slowing that inbending down, creating a straighter tippath , which is cool for directing our energy in the desired direction.


Thank you for that, Lasse. :) I would think that hauling straightens the tip path around minimum chord length and rod straight position too, would you agree? So does hauling actually add flex? :)

I would imagine that hauling changes the '15% spring 85% leverage' when we haul, too ;)
Geenomad wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 2:22 am
Another nice thing about hauls is that they help share the Work load between hands, thus reducing the effort needed by the rod hand to produce a cast to a given distance, thus enhancing net Force in the intended direction of the cast by reducing (the risk of) over rotation which applies force in competing directions. Hauls contribute to efficiency. :cool:

Cheers
Mark
I like that, Mark!

All the best!
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Paul Arden
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#5

Post by Paul Arden » Wed May 13, 2020 12:04 pm

Wow. Just back in Internet coverage and the first thing I see is a post from Lasse with which I completely agree. I must have passed through into some sort of parallel universe while sneaking around the lake in the dark. Frightening stuff.

We really need some more studies because when Gordy analysed my haul the acceleration peaked around or just after MCL which is neither what I expected nor strive for.

It’s always interesting to find out that you are not doing what you think you are. No wonder there are so many myths in Flycasting!

Cheers, Paul
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nicholasfmoore
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#6

Post by nicholasfmoore » Thu May 14, 2020 2:54 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:04 pm
Wow. Just back in Internet coverage and the first thing I see is a post from Lasse with which I completely agree. I must have passed through into some sort of parallel universe while sneaking around the lake in the dark. Frightening stuff.

We really need some more studies because when Gordy analysed my haul the acceleration peaked around or just after MCL which is neither what I expected nor strive for.

It’s always interesting to find out that you are not doing what you think you are. No wonder there are so many myths in Flycasting!

Cheers, Paul
Haha! :laugh: :laugh:

That's great to know! So hauling does increase rod flex to a degree at the end of the stroke? :)

All the best!
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#7

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu May 14, 2020 3:15 pm

nicholasfmoore wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:54 pm

Haha! :laugh: :laugh:

That's great to know! So hauling does increase rod flex to a degree at the end of the stroke? :)

All the best!
Eh, no :D we haul ideally, while the rod is unbending,

Good clip to look at:


There's a marker on the line (and one on the tip of the rod), so its possible to see when the haul (pulling line in through the rings) start, and at the same time see what the rod is doing. Its also possible to see when the haul ends, and thus no longer affects the rod, which is basicly at the end of the stroke ;)

Another clip would be this one, but it's been posted here so many times that I fear people are getting wary of it :D



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Lasse
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Bianchetti Ivan
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#8

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Thu May 14, 2020 5:48 pm

I think it increases the time in which the maximum weight available is accelerated, obviously I can be wrong, as I often do.

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#9

Post by Paul Arden » Thu May 14, 2020 11:59 pm

The argument is this Nick: if we haul as the rod is unloading (which we do) and if we are accelerating the line with the haul, then we must be adding load to the rod. However the run is unloading at this point, so this additional load slows the rod unbending. The reason that hauling works is because rod leg speed is a summation of rod tip speed plus haul speed. Furthermore it has been suggested that this haul retarding the rod tip between MCL and RSP can in turn straighten the tip path.

Incidentally if we haul before MCL then hauling must be adding some load and in this case additional bend. How much advantage is there in this? I would doubt very much at all. Certainly all the distance casters I know time their haul to occur towards the end of the stroke, not because they haven’t tried hauling at other times but because this is the timing that produces the longest results. If hauling early and creating additional rod bend was of importance you can be sure even Lasse would be doing it.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#10

Post by Paul Arden » Fri May 15, 2020 12:07 am

Incidentally Lasse - What is the white dot you use on the line there? I still need to film the snakehead shot. I’m pretty sure I’m releasing close to MCL on the backcast. Thanks, Paul
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