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Double Haul increasing rod flex?

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Merlin
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#31

Post by Merlin » Sat May 23, 2020 12:40 pm

Haul timing vs MAV.JPG
Mike

Here is an illustration of the effect of timing on rod tip path, the reference being the timing for the Maximum Angular Velocity (rotation), MAV. An early haul (green line) leads to a drop in the tip path which should cause a tail in the line. A later haul can avoid the dip in the trajectory but keeps that trajectory on the domed side (blue). The latest haul illustrated in red shows a flattening of the tip path by comparison to a non hauled cast (black dotted line).

As you accelerate the line with the haul, it creates more force on the line even if the mass of the carry is a litttle bit diminished. Consequently the line pulls harder on the rod and depending on the synchronization of events, you can create more bend too soon (green), or in synch with the natural response of the rod without haul (blue) or later than that and the extra bend due to the hauling motion occurs during the unloading of the rod, delaying that unloading a little bit and flattening tip path.

Is that clearer?

Merlin
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Paul Arden
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#32

Post by Paul Arden » Sat May 23, 2020 6:20 pm

Finishing the haul too soon to create a tail is something I’ve seen quite a few times when first teaching the haul - it’s easily solved. I’ve seen it very rarely after this. But I have seen it a couple of times with experienced casters.

It’s difficult to demonstrate but be really concentrating on going mental with the hauling hand I can make it happen every time.

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#33

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sat May 23, 2020 7:39 pm

you do know I want to see that next time we meet right?

And is it really a tail beginners do when learning the haul wrong?

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#34

Post by Michal Duzynski » Sat May 23, 2020 8:32 pm

Thank you for clarification, great stuff

cheers
mike

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#35

Post by Paul Arden » Sun May 24, 2020 6:45 am

Hi Lasse,

Yes it’s rare but I’ve seen it and identified it quite a few times but it’s usually not a consistent problem and you may not even have to point it out (with those first learning to Double haul). It’s really a very mistimed haul!

However several times I’ve found it to be a problem with more experienced casters. It always interesting because of its rarity - the first time I even got to say I’ve never seen this before! In fact one of my most recent students was trying to stop the haul at butt stop and this was the cause. I’ve seen it twice (certainly) in more advanced casters and remember both lessons clearly. Maybe I had it one more time. In any case it’s always easy to fix - haul through the stop.

[“Finishing the haul too soon” causing a tail was originally a theory in trying to make sense of why “starting the haul too soon” was said to cause a tail. And we’ve both been teaching long before the theory came along - I would be surprised if we haven’t had this before and only failed to identify it.]

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#36

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sun May 24, 2020 9:23 pm

Hi Paul

Careful not to enter into the "creep causes tails" territory 🙂

It is a sudden jerk when starting the haul more than anything causing a tail, and it ends up at the end of unrolling, just like the distance caster tail of starting the cast and rotation too soon does.
Ending a haul at the place where it really causes problems is such a weird constelation of movements that it in itself irons out, ie the beginner learning the haul.

And yes theres æoads of thing we probably have failed to identify or identified wrong in the past, probably also in the present and most likely in the future, thats what makes this fun and worthwile 😊

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#37

Post by Paul Arden » Mon May 25, 2020 9:28 am

I actually partly agree with you, but I would never say that in public, Lasse :p

I'm sure that you will remember how it came to be "finishing the haul too soon". It was because "starting the haul too early" was being said to cause a tail. But the theory determined that it wasn't the early beginning that would cause the tip to rise, only the early completion. And if you analyse it to be that way, it is certainly the case - and I've since seen it several times with experienced casters finishing haul at butt stop. In the case of these guys it's not simply a misplaced accidental haul, but its been timed that way on purpose - and it's only the mistimed casts that produce nice loops!

Funnily enough, as I travelled across the States, in parking lots to break up the drive I would practise my distance casting. Having watched Rick I was determined to learn a faster haul. The problem became that every time I hauled as quickly as I could the loop would tail. The coin dropped on the next leg of the journey and I timed the haul to begin close to MCL so that it would end later. It was quite enlightening because then I knew why Rick was watching his rod coming through and saying "there" at the beginning of his haul.

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#38

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Tue May 26, 2020 1:26 pm

vimeo.com/26927235

Could you please point out "butt stop" in that clip?
I honestly do not know when that is!

And yeah, but maybe even ending the haul too soon needs an overhaul...

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#39

Post by Paul Arden » Wed May 27, 2020 6:58 am

Ok of course, very hard if not impossible, but that’s not the stroke that people bring to lessons that’s causing a problem. The stroke that causes the problem is the hard stop stroke that many are taught when they first learn fly casting like this say (without the speed) - - and then trying to fit a haul to it! If you make a hard stop and time to haul to finish at this point - which can also happen not least because we used to think we actually did this - then you can get tailing loops. That you don’t cast this way doesn’t means that no one else does :D

Cheers, Paul
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