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Perfect tracking?

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Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Perfect tracking?

#11

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:30 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:28 pm
Haul length plus the amount of line you pull out of the direction to the intended taget, so you just start the loop in the taper.
Letting go at the right time is the best way of delaying turnover.
Cheera
Lasse
HI Lasse,

Could you elaborate a bit further?

What/where is the "amount of line you pull out of the direction to the target"? I mean, other than the haul length? You say, "plus".

And, do you not want to create the loop in a small part of the running line? Just at the beginning of the taper always seemed logical to me, but then I thought it was established that some running line was important for loop morph?

And#2... is the right time to delay turnover a bit earlier in the stroke? When the rod is closer to perpendicular than usual?

I'm just curious. This is all hypothetical for me until I can carry the entire head length of these extended lines!

Thanks!
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Re: Perfect tracking?

#12

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:14 am

Given identical release timing - and all else being equal - the longer the length of line in the fly leg the longer it takes to unroll. The stability problems occur when a long length of running/shooting line is at the beginning of the fly leg (not in the loop IMO). At some point it becomes trade off.

The way *not* to cast a fly line with a 30’ head for distance is with 1-2m of overhang. But neither is it to hold the backing knot in the line hand. It’s somewhere in-between, closer to the backing knot than the head but still less than our maximum carry. Floating the cast with just the head out isn’t going to beat a longer carry even with these short heads because a) longer lengths of fly leg take longer to unroll and b) friction in the running line is going to both bleed energy from the unrolling loop as well as turn the loop over early. Release timing is independent of head length.

Anyway it’s nice to see that you have taken up Rasmus’ position!

Gary, the same morphing phenomenon occurs with shorter heads too. When the initial loop is formed with running line the subsequent morphing is more pronounced.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Perfect tracking?

#13

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:42 am

We need to have a shootout with a 30 foot head Paul 😉
And didn't take up Rasmus' position, was actually trying to tell him that some instructors had alteady been talking and teaching that, back when he made the claim here, but was misunderstood, happens when debating in a third language....

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Lasse
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Re: Perfect tracking?

#14

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:50 am

We've often had 40' WF lines in Shootouts (30' is actually a bit uncommon). Barrio SLX is 33'. I remember that one was in a Scottish Shootout. We probably even have the results on the old Board! I'll have a look :)

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Re: Perfect tracking?

#15

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:02 am

Ok I found it but unfortunately the result were uploaded via a photo server and not direct to the Board. :sick:
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Re: Perfect tracking?

#16

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:34 am

Oh, and I agree that release timing is independent of headlength!
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Re: Perfect tracking?

#17

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:36 am

For about 12 years the shootinghead in the Danish championships, where a 30 foot head, so done a few shootouts with just that length 😉
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Re: Perfect tracking?

#18

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:37 am

Oh, and for fun, done quite a few with 17 foot heads too... also as full lines 😉

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Re: Perfect tracking?

#19

Post by nicholasfmoore » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:53 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:28 pm
I'm with you on short headed lines. I don't like them. I much prefer a long headed weight forward, or even better a double taper. I've never found a quick way to work out what overhang length is best for the line to delay turnover. It always takes me a while. How do you do it?
Haul length plus the amount of line you pull out of the direction to the intended taget, so you just start the loop in the taper.
Letting go at the right time is the best way of delaying turnover.

Cheera
Lasse
Hi Lasse,

Thank's for that :) So, for example, if you only had 5 mins to find the optimum for an unfamiliar line, what would you? Back shoot a significant amount of running line at different lengths? That's what i do personally. You have had far more experience than me with shooting heads etc so would greatly value your opinion. Are you going to post that video of you false casting with overhang again? ;)

Also, Lasse, triangle taper holding the backing knot ;) I'd love to see a video of you doing that, but i know you can do it anyway. :laugh:
The way *not* to cast a fly line with a 30’ head for distance is with 1-2m of overhang. But neither is it to hold the backing knot in the line hand. It’s somewhere in-between, closer to the backing knot than the head but still less than our maximum carry. Floating the cast with just the head out isn’t going to beat a longer carry even with these short heads because a) longer lengths of fly leg take longer to unroll and b) friction in the running line is going to both bleed energy from the unrolling loop as well as turn the loop over early. Release timing is independent of head length.
I agree :) I haven't fished with a short headed line for about 12 years, the dry fly fishing where i am is better suited to a long headed line. When i had a Rio gold, i remember using a significant amount of back shooting on the final cast, maybe 20-25'? I don't know about you, but a lot of people i know do use this line, and they seem to think the 'optimum loading point(!) sorry gents :laugh:' is when the colour change is at the tip. As you say, Paul, this isn't the way to cast those shorter headed lines.

I believe for comp distance you should actually try to carry the amount you need without back shooting (obviously you are better than me, Paul, so would be glad to get your ideas on this), the one advantage i can see to that is, if you mess up your timing, you can pull it back and get it under control. If you can't carry what you need to, and do back shoot, you don't have another shot at it. However, for short headed lines i think back shooting is the best thing you can do for fishing. Of course you can false cast it with significant overhang, and even carrying the whole line, but for fishing i think back shooting is more practical. What do you think? :)

All the best!
Nick M

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Re: Perfect tracking?

#20

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:58 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:14 am

The way *not* to cast a fly line with a 30’ head for distance is with 1-2m of overhang. But neither is it to hold the backing knot in the line hand. It’s somewhere in-between, closer to the backing knot than the head but still less than our maximum carry. Floating the cast with just the head out isn’t going to beat a longer carry even with these short heads because a) longer lengths of fly leg take longer to unroll and b) friction in the running line is going to both bleed energy from the unrolling loop as well as turn the loop over early. Release timing is independent of head length.

Cheers, Paul
The part after b) is the root of the problem I seem to be having with brick/string "predator" type lines? They carry a big fly easily, but I can't get much more distance than say 2X the head.

It isn't a tracking issue though so maybe a separate thread would be better.
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Wallace Stevens

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