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Hand Speed

John Waters
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm

Hand Speed

#1

Post by John Waters » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:15 am

Hi All,

Have a second question I am hoping someone can help me with. I know there was some work done a few years back about haul speed but has anybody measured the rod hand speed attained at release for a distance cast? It does not matter if it was a trout distance or sea trout distance cast.

Thanks in advance,

John

ROF
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:44 pm

Re: Hand Speed

#2

Post by ROF » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:40 pm




Herewith two clips from my archive, not great quality ... was evaluating haul timing when casting smoothly. Both competent casters with good late hauls on the delivery casts.

Rod hand speeds around 6m/s and line hand haul speeds around 6-9m/s.

Not competition distance casts but well in the 100-120ft class
Rod hand = red trace
Line hand = green trace

ROF
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Re: Hand Speed

#3

Post by ROF » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:42 pm


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Paul Arden
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Re: Hand Speed

#4

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:51 pm

Hi John,

many of the haul measurements on SL have been measured from the stripping guide to hauling hand. Which is obviously higher than line hand alone.

Thanks Leslie. I’ll have a look shortly. Just fixing a fuel leak!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

ROF
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Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:44 pm

Re: Hand Speed

#5

Post by ROF » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:06 pm

From the above article....
Speed-profile-of-the-rod-and-hand-movements-The-translational-speed-m-s-black-line.png
Figure 2. Speed profile of the rod and hand movements. The translational
speed (m/s) (black line) and angular rotational speed (r/s) (blue line) of the
rod and the speed of the line hand relative to the rod butt (m/s) (red line),
presenting from left to right the final forward false cast, the final back false
cast and the delivery cast. The figure illustrates the sequential coordination
of rod and double haul movements where ∆t1 represents the time interval
between peak speed of rod translation and rod rotation and where ∆t2
represents the time interval between the peak speed of rod rotation and the
peak speed of line hand relative to rod butt. ∆t3 is the sum of ∆t1 and ∆t2.
Time (t) is presented in milliseconds (ms).

John Waters
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Re: Hand Speed

#6

Post by John Waters » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:08 pm

Hi Leslie,

My thanks for sharing your analysis in post 2 and your reference to the research paper " Fly Casting - Movement Co-ordination and Performance". Both are very informative and I very much appreciate the information you have provided. Vince Brandon had previously referred me to work done by Lovell, Roijezon et.al. which quantified translation hand speed achieved by casters accurately and scientifically.

My interest in the rod hand speed generated in the casting action is to compare that key indicator with that of other throwing sports.

All things being equal, the key determinant in distance fly casting is the hand speed generated. That is the building block upon which angular rotation speed of the rod and haul speed are added. Hence, both can be largely ignored in any analysis of casting technique comparison because, for any given caster, after standard statistical methodologies are applied to a number of casts, using the same gear in the same conditions, the faster the hand speed generated, the further the cast will go.

From my reading of the data you have provided, the maximum hand speed generated in a fly distance cast, given the population sampled, was approximately 8 metres per second. That is the translational speed of the rod hand, which I presume was generated from the start of the forward cast with a zero speed value, culminating in 8 metres per second as the highest velocity generated in the delivery action. I also presume that includes the segment of the cast in which the hand/forearm is rotated over the elbow, prior to the deceleration of the hand on the forward release cast.

If that is the case, my contention that we can improve casting technique through the application of technique used in other sports is valid because some sports achieve multiple times that hand speed. Of course, if my assumptions above are incorrect, then my comparison is invalid and casting is truly a unique sport and consequently, requires a different technique from any other found within the sporting world.

Thank you again,

John

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Merlin
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Re: Hand Speed

#7

Post by Merlin » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:46 pm

Hi John

Like in other throwing sports, it is not sure that increasing release speed corresponds to a better performance given the influence of air drag for example. I shall send you a thesis on javelin throw which show that such problems are awfully complex and caster dependant.

The only possibility for an improvement in fly casting I can see is to use the torso for storing energy either by leanning back then forward and/or twisting shoulders versus hips. Both motions should use a stop to enable a transfer of momentum to the casting arm. Not sure about tracking under such circumstances. It may even not be actually practical to fully use the trunk to improve fly casting distance.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
Charles Ritz, A Flyfisher's Life

John Waters
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Re: Hand Speed

#8

Post by John Waters » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:22 pm

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your post, much appreciated. You are correct about the impact on air drag on a javelin impacting distance. I fully agree with your statement that it is both complex and caster dependent. It is often simplified by reference to the angle of attack achieved by the athlete at release, but I agree the mathematics behind that are complex.

The fact that the athlete is throwing a rigid body with a specific centre of mass is as different from a fly line as you can get, the only common post release impact on a javelin, discuss, hammer, ball, stone or fly line is that drag is always present. It impacts everything thrown, launched or cast.

You've summarised both the reality of, and potential for, distance casting perfectly. As to tracking, I view it as a reason for change, not a reason for sustain.

Would love to catch up one day and discuss all things casting with you.

Thanks again,

John

Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Hand Speed

#9

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:35 am

Merlin wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:46 pm
Hi John

The only possibility for an improvement in fly casting I can see is to use the torso for storing energy either by leanning back then forward and/or twisting shoulders versus hips. Both motions should use a stop to enable a transfer of momentum to the casting arm. Not sure about tracking under such circumstances. It may even not be actually practical to fully use the trunk to improve fly casting distance.

Merlin
Over here in the US, where NFL style football is king, there is a lot of study and teaching on the mechanics a quarterback uses to propel a football aka "passing".

If you do a quick search on the topic (I suggest Google-ing something along the lines of Tom Brady's passing mechanics) I think you will be interested in the sequence of knees / hips / shoulders/ hand, etc.

I know I found some parallels to casting... and actually thought it quite useful.

I would be curious to hear y'all opinions on similarities and/or where it differs.
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

John Waters
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Re: Hand Speed

#10

Post by John Waters » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:40 am

Like baseball pitching, there are parallels to casting but some major differences as well. Brady does not brake as effectively as do exponents of other throwing sports, nor are his feet and leg placements and extensions the same either. He does not use linear acceleration like casters do and his movement reflects that. His shoulder orientation does not suit casting, but is eminently suitable for football and other ball throwing actions like cricket and baseball, for the reasons espoused in the movement analysis.

John

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