Analysing loop propagation

[Michael Rebholz]

@dirk

The superbubble can expand and contract within its limits and requirements of the cast

M

[Michael Rebholz]

@merlin
Do you know where the casting loop as such is coming from?
Do you know why it's called a loop?
Or were u just told its called a loop and eversince believed it like everyone else?

I am not stating something, I have very hard facts. One of them is the source of the true loop. That's where its coming from, proof in history. Do u deny that source?
Where's the one that names the casting loop as such for the first time? No-one knows that. Why?

The wavespey does proof at first sight that loops are no loops but nothing else but an expression of rod vibration.

Not one casting i structor in the world knows where the loop is coming from,l. I have found it and it is the path of the rod top, nothing else.

The propagating line is unrolling and some form of wave. A cast is made by putting a vibration (or more) of some sort through the rod.

Understanding casts as waves won't be possible without putting the loop in its right full place and applying the wave thinking on casts and casting.

@greame from when is your video un this thread where u do the wave thing like I do in my wavespey spey video?

I see in your threads that u say a lot of things I m saying too...

There's a second video part of the proof of the right place for the loop and its connected to the oozlum spey, I might go in my phone fly cast studio tomorrow quickly and shoot a bit of footage for the craic.

Everybody pls can someone proof that it is a loop?
That's the proof you have to bring. All else is pure Dogma like religion. Hard facts wanted.

Cheers and TL
Michael

[Merlin]

I have found it and it is the path of the rod top, nothing else.

I confirm we do not speak of the same loop. I understand your analogy with Graeme's approach of a tip path cycle, if I call call it like that. It is not because someone used that word for a tip path years ago that it is engraved in stone. Since that time it has been popularised as the shape of the front of the line as it unrolls. This is a fact, indeed.

I think I can find a number of books in my library where the word "loop" is used for the "thing" which connects both line legs. I shall give some date of publications for those books.

May I ask again if you believe that all the energy given to the line comes from a "wave" generated within the rod? It comes from the caster for sure.

Merlin

[Michael Rebholz]

The energy given to the line comes from the caster and the rod, line can only be energised well in a sense of a good cast if in the correct configuration (straight or anchored).
À line can be thrown by hand without a rod (if straight before), I haven't thought about that one yet... Still u can form that travelling thing ng

[Michael Rebholz]

So the rod acts as amplifier to (Broad) cast the line. The line circulates between two different mediums with fish in one of them and behaves accordingly. The signal we are sending is a fly or two, 3.
I see where the scientists have their point with Newton and all, still the line unrolls if u do it right...
Now does this line unroll because it is a loop? Or does it unroll because you put an accelerated shock wave through it? (no matter if by hand or rod)

What you call the cycle of the tip is in my understanding the "REAL" loop. And that is congruent and consistent with the oldest source about the thing and with the consequences out of bonkerspey and the wavespey and hence the superbubble approach.

I don't "believe" anything in this sport anymore and I question everything. And this concept of the casting casting loop is a fascinating myth. No one in here is not ever come up with the slightest approach or word about a proof that it is a loop. Everytime I ask for this it gets very quiet.

It seems to be a problem in flyfishing that someone says something at some stage and the rest repeats it without questioning, how many myths out there have been busted? How many more to come? Strange thing is that usually the one who says these things is put in some godless unquestionable state. So the one who had come up with the casting loop and its definitions should be our superhero everybody would know about or would have heard of. Nothing of such is existing for the concept of the loop. Ask yourself why.

Cheers and TL
Michael

[Paul Arden]

It’s very difficult to change the definition of words that have been in use for decades, Michael. There has been quite a lot of literature in this time using the word “loop” that you would now like changed to “cast”. So what would your definition of “cast” be? The current definition of that word doesn’t seem to fit your argument.

Incidentally who invented the word “cast”? Where did that word come from?

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

@john

Torx, and the understanding of combining waves /swing patterns will make casters do that.

Repeat your questions pls I did not answer

Cheers and TL

Thanks Michael,

Please read my questions in post #115 and post #136 above.

I have raised a number of questions all aimed at proof of your predictions about what will happen to casting performance if casters adopt, apply and benefit from your concept when "wave" supplants “loop” and casters adopt “torx” into their stroke.

I am a basic sort of a bloke who is interested in measurable and quantifiable results to support any proposal of change. Definitions are fine but you have made a number of predictions about how the current group of world's best practice casters would dramatically improve their results if they adopted your concepts. Excuse my lack of ability in being able to understand the link between your concept and casting accuracy and performance (the 3 years I spent in grade 4 at primary school were the best years I had at school) but let me paraphrase my questions as;

1. How will adoption of the "wave” and “torx” concepts make future casting world champion increase their accuracy and distance scores compared with the score achieved by current champions

2. What aspects of current casting technique will change when both the “wave” and “torx” concepts are incorporated into both the biomechanics and the movement chain of accuracy and distance casting?

Change is about defining the current state, defining the future state and developing a strategy to move from current to future.

Let me apply that tenet to the discussion by suggesting the epitome of casting’s current state is the movement chain and technique used by casters at recent world accuracy and distance championships and you can easily obtain that by grabbing a video from the web.

You have defined the future state by your prediction that

"I am 100 percent convinced that if we learn to control and combine the torx craic into our casting we will throw distances that have not been thought possible before and super high line speeds.”

and

"the future is that whoever casting God your praying to right now is gonna be outcast within the next 15 years.”

I am asking you to detail the strategy or, change in technique, stroke or movement chain that will need to be adopted to move from the current state ie the technique used by the top level of casting accuracy and distance casters at world championships to your predicted future state of casting. I again request you use any video from recent world championships of accuracy and distance competitors as the basis of your analysis of casting technique to explain and justify your claim that "the future is that whoever casting God your praying to right now is gonna be outcast within the next 15 years.”

Please describe to me what the 2035 casting God will be doing differently from the 2020 casting God and refer to the 2018 videos to illustrate those differences that are sourced to the adoption of your wave and torx concepts?

3. Why does my silent distance cast never go as far as my distance cast with sound?

As someone who is interested in the development of casting, I am always interested in new ideas and concepts but am equally interested in the justification of those ideas and proof of why they should be adopted.

Happy to adopt your concepts into my casting before the next world championships but need your answers to the above questions in order to justify their adoption. As I said, show me the “how" the “why” as well as the relative, quantifiable improvements associated with the new concepts and I am a convert.

I will need all the help I can get for my next casting tournament so I am looking forward to your analysis of the current and future casting technique to justify the claims you have made about casting performance improvement in this thread. I have requested you use competition casters as the basis of your proof of concept because they are the ones who most actively seek any improvement in technique and most closely analyse their relative results.

Thanks in advance,

John

[Merlin]

Another fact for you Michael, an abstract from a booklet published in 1937 by a US cane rodmaker:

Powell on loops.JPG (85.5 KiB) Viewed 1505 times

Merlin

[Merlin]

Another point: casting with a rigid rod (something experienced by a former member of the forum).

If you cast with a rigid rod, the tip path will follow your 3D concept, and the line can be cast (although it is unpleasant). There is no vibration involved with the rigid rod: where is the wave aspect then?

Merlin

[Michael Rebholz]

@merlin
Thanks à million for this wonderful source from 1937

It shows that Powell refers there 1937 already refers to the loop like we do today and have been told:

The U thing is referred to as loop.

In 1885 there is no talk of cf asting loops, so that must have come up soon after 1885.
Nevertheless shows no definitions and is deffo not the originating work about the casting loop.

He is also talking about swing and overswing:
Swing being the vibration and overswing a too low of a rod stopping position.
Also interesting: the produce different rod actions and learn they influence the tightness of a cast.

@paul I won't be able to change the word, and that's not nessecary, I induce a new train of thought (which is already happening.... That's why I need to know the date of "graeme wave" and the change will happen by itself within the next 100 years or probably faster nowadays.


@john
I m not interested in distance casting anymore. The wave concept nevertheless opens a new dimension in casting and in thinking it. Its hew and it takes awhile to get used to this and its also incredible difficult to get rid of the word loop in your head. Took me two years and I still do it.

Now how exactly can u improve as a tournament distance caster?

I can't tell u that exactly yet because these distance casters u mention above I should work with bully me for what I say and/or don't have the cochones to face what I say and to open themselves.

This train of thought is new and I am only working on these techniques. Some of this is tackle relevant design craic I do not want to talk about here now and probably not in the future either.

As on how to improve in casting general I would recommend 3 things:
1 relax
2 focus
3 bonkerspey and wavespey excersises

What actually helped me mega was Yoga, believe it or not.

Every competing sportsman knows that the mental factor, the mindset is very important.
Now if we generate a better understanding of casting we will grow stronger mindsets and therefore cast better.
The right wave mix is another thi g I would be paying attention too.

I m à casting instructor for "the small people" my goal is to make casting easier at all levels and the sport easier accessible for beginners. So pls excuse if I can't help u here any further with your distance casting. That doesn't change anything on the fact that I am convinced your casting God will be outcast soon. Too much potential in it for people who want it

Look at me, I m a shit caster. Still, after what bonkerspey and the wavespey did to me, I m playing in a total different league (I mean that in a sense of different, not better) than All Of YOU. Plus I have the balls to say it well knowing that probably not everyone likes to hear that. C est la vie.

And that is Only due to applying a new type of thinking to the casting. Still hard to imagine what the real good casters are gonna do with this once it's getting accepted.


Cheers and TL
Michael