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Hypothetical question on mechanics

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John Waters
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#51

Post by John Waters » Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:32 am

Not a typo Mangrove, left foot forward for right handed casters. When I watch Stefan's video I think he transfers his weight both efficiently and effectively in the direction of the cast. Irrespective of which foot leads the cast, casters transfer their weight fully onto that lead foot through both false casts and the delivery cast. Stefan does it and here is a shot of my friend Wlodek Targosz, who I think is the best fly distance caster I have seen, winning a world championship gold medal. Stefan and Wlodek have the same body weight end of range movement, albeit they transfer their weight to a different foot.

John
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John Waters
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#52

Post by John Waters » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:21 am

Interesting observation Mangrove about what technique you had observed in the US and differences in what has been developed in other countries. I have some old super 8 movie of USA's Jon Tarantino casting fly distance at Golden Gate casting ponds in 1967. Steve Rajeff casts with the same technique, both being very powerful casters with similar body profiles. That short arc then drift technique has been adopted by many US casters since Tarantino was winning world championships in the 50's and 60's. I did not see Hedge, Diekman or Gregory cast but suspect they used a similar technique.

European casting developed differently with a longer stroke being the more common standard than was the case in the US. The first time I saw what is now termed the 170 stroke was by eastern European ICSF fly distance casters in the 70 and 80s. Unlike today's Trout Fly distance casters, using 25 metre plus carry with a 5 weight floating MED, they used 15 metre SA T40 express sinking shooting head lines, very different gear, very similar technique.

From my observation, the short stroke and drift technique epitomised by Steve Rajeff is still the standard in the US, although Henry Mittel may be an exception.

A predominantly elbow in front and above the shoulder, not behind the shoulder, distance technique is now becoming popular in Europe with ICSF fly distance casters following the success of Czech casters like Jan Luxa on the world championship scene. Similar to Stefan in the above clip only left foot forward for right handed casters. Tracy James employs a similar technique.

It will be interesting to see the development of technique used in the 27 gram Sea Trout single handed shooting head event and the 55 gram shooting head two handed Salmon distance events in the next decade or two and compare it to the ICSF 38 gram single handed fly distance and the 120 gram shooting head two handed distance events current at the same time.

We'll see,

John

Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#53

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:55 pm

John Waters wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:21 am
Interesting observation Mangrove about what technique you had observed in the US and differences in what has been developed in other countries.
John
John,

Sorry, I forgot to qualify my comments on that my interests in casting are for fishing. I have been trying to do that but sometimes I forget I have to do it every time.

To clarify, except for a few times I have seen some good natured goofballs drinking beer and measuring their dicks with a flyrod, I have never witnessed a casting competition. And certainly, never anything of world championship caliber.

In fact, your photo was the first time I saw a "platform"! I was not aware how elevated they are!

But seriously, i think you have an elbow fetish. :D

I comment on a mesomorph casting right handed with his right foot forward, and you respond with a photo of an endomorph, left foot forward, as is common, and you suggest they have similar casting techniques?

It's all good John. We just live in different realms of the fly universe, but we both are students of casting. :yeahhh:
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#54

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:29 pm

Mangrove, do you think the body types have any real impact on casting technique?
And pretty sure Stefan is endo these days 😉

First time he posted a video on a local swedish board of me and another of rick Hartmann, he was told by all the fishers that me and Rick had no technique to use in fishing, we would fall of a slippery rock and drown and fall out the boat etc..

This was the clip of Rick:




And this is Rick fishing:


My clip has disapperead, but I sometimes fish places like this :
78693589_3167667536583505_5221591075474374656_o.jpg
Sometimes we have to be able to look past the enviroment where someone is doing something and see if it can be used in a different enviroment :)

Cheers
Lasse
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James9118
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#55

Post by James9118 » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:44 pm

I'm calling 'foot fault' in that casting comp :D :D :D (everyone watching the loop as Rick surreptitiously takes a backward step).

Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#56

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:21 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:29 pm
Mangrove, do you think the body types have any real impact on casting technique?


Sometimes we have to be able to look past the enviroment where someone is doing something and see if it can be used in a different enviroment :)

Cheers
Lasse
Lasse,

As to the first question... Yes.

And to the last suggestion... I wholehearted agree! That is why I'm here. :D
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#57

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:27 pm

James9118 wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:44 pm
I'm calling 'foot fault' in that casting comp :D :D :D (everyone watching the loop as Rick surreptitiously takes a backward step).
That's where Paul learnt to do it :p

Cheers
Lasse
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***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#58

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:29 pm

Mangrove Cuckoo wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:21 pm
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:29 pm
Mangrove, do you think the body types have any real impact on casting technique?


Sometimes we have to be able to look past the enviroment where someone is doing something and see if it can be used in a different enviroment :)

Cheers
Lasse
Lasse,

As to the first question... Yes.

And to the last suggestion... I wholehearted agree! That is why I'm here. :D
Mangrove,

Ok, what impact do you think it has then?

And cool, like the rest of us I think :blush:

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger

http://www.karlssonflyfishing.com

***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

John Waters
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#59

Post by John Waters » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:21 pm

Hi Mangrove,

Believe it or not I actually go fly fishing and thoroughly enjoy my days on the water. Love my trout fishing but got blown away with my first bonefish. I also enjoy the competition side of the sport. I swing both ways. :-).

I had to look up what mesomorph and endomorph mean, I am Australian after all so I only know words up to 4 letters. :-)

My body profile is neither mesomorph or endomorph, more like bowling-ball-morph. My view is that it is not the shape of the body, it is what you do with it that counts.

However, I am guilty of being a tad irreverent. I went fishing with a famous Australian fly fisher many years ago and asked him "how many strips to the first fish". He responded, in a very serious manner, that fishing was not like casting tournaments and regaled me with a very detailed explanation about the need to accurately judge the length of the fly line whilst you are false casting before you deliver the fly because you do not know the distance to the fish. You often only get one shot at the fish, he said. We had a laugh when I said my question was in jest and further explained that is exactly the challenge in fly casting accuracy tournaments i.e. the targets are not at fixed distances, you need to judge the length of line whist false casting before you deliver and you only get one shot at the target. Just like fishing. :-)

No need to qualify any posts mate, casting is casting is casting. Everything we do with a rod, line, fly or fluff is simply a variation on a theme, irrespective of whether we are at a casting pool, on a stream, lakeshore or seashore, standing or sitting, in a boat, or as some may think is my natural casting environment, on another planet. :-)

When you cut through all the terminology, all the ownership and personification, the egos and all the bullshit that is endemic to fly fishing and fly casting, there is only one essential - have fun. Sure, we can always have fun more easily by being a better caster, but enjoyment should always be the primary objective.

I think Lasse has summed it up in his post above "Sometimes we have to be able to look past the enviroment where someone is doing something and see if it can be used in a different environment". Whenever I go fishing and cast to a fish using a haul, use a forward taper line or shooting head line or use a fly line or rod that has an AFTMA number on it, that comment is reinforced.

Always the student,

John

George C
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#60

Post by George C » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:51 pm

It's those damn ectomorphs who ruin it for the rest of us.
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