Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

[John Waters]

Thanks Peter, I use both top and bottom hands to rotate and block the rod on the forward cast, and teach my students the same. The bottom hand will always be the weaker of the two because it is limited to the elbow and wrist functions only. On the forward cast, I get my students to focus on a more powerful bottom hand movement and block, to balance what the shoulder adds to top hand movement.

John

[jarmo]

The bottom hand thing - ie pushing away did not work with this guy, and neither did the Scandi "stirring the pot" thing (we were using a Scandi head). Bloody tough but he's the kind of guy who will go away and think about it and next time round will make progress.

So, to recap

• dominant hand on bottom was impossible due to wind
• pushing away with bottom hand did not work
• "stirring the pot" did not work

Quick checks:

• Which cast(s) did you work with?
• Was his stance closed?

I suppose the next time you try to ensure conditions favour dominant hand on bottom?

One more possibility is to cast overhead, where you can repeat/emphasise bottom hand activation a large number of times in a short period of time. With a (floating) scandi, overhead casting is a good exercise.

Let us know how the story ends.

[Morsie]

He's coming back in the next week Jarmo (assuming our current lock down ends). I'm going to do some pantomiming with him first, on the grass. I had some success with that recently. I have a couple of broomsticks for that, one each, side by side.

I started with a roll cast - trying the "flip the tip" exercise which uses the top hand purely as a fixed fulcrum point so all the power is generated by pulling the bottom hand in. I'm going to try putting a tennis ball into the crook of his top hand elbow and tell him to hold it there.

Then Switch cast, then one of the waterborn anchor casts - depending on wind direction. Thanks for your interest. I'll let you know how he gets on.

I find the Underhand style quite robotic in its short fixed minimalist moves, and I'm going to try to introduce that control to bring his swinging arms and elbows under control. That's the plan anyway. It certainly worked for me and of course from there you can loosen up a bit over time. I do think the underhand style is an excellent learning mode, hence my interest in it.

[jarmo]

Morsie,

since you are taking the switch cast route, you might be interested to know that I have used the following with reasonable success.

1. Introduce overhead cast. This isolates controlled use of leverage from anchors and drifting/circling-up to key position. Focus on use of bottom hand and minimal movement.
2. Switch cast.
3. As soon as your student starts to swing his arms around, go back to overhead cast to regain control.
4. Repeat.

[Morsie]

Thank you for that Jarmo. You don't think a static roll cast can do that, and very slowly?

[jarmo]

Thank you for that Jarmo. You don't think a static roll cast can do that, and very slowly?

I thought you tried it and it did not work with this student?

Personally I find a static roll cast too... static. I like more dynamic casts for learning to use the leverage effectively in both directions. As I mentioned before, my current favourite is the poke. For an appropriate line, such as a floating scandi, a combination of overhead and switch has not been too bad.

[Morsie]

I think that some things are too important to ignore and if at first they don't work we need to learn how to teach them another way. I like the static roll cast for learning the use of the bottom hand because its done so slowly, and you can break it down into a series of moves, with a pause between each. I may be wrong about it but if I find myself pushing over with the top hand I just go back to 10 minutes of left hand up, right hand up, static roll casts.

Full covid lockdown here at the moment, I can get to the lake myself, but no teaching.

[jarmo]

I think that some things are too important to ignore and if at first they don't work we need to learn how to teach them another way. I like the static roll cast for learning the use of the bottom hand because its done so slowly, and you can break it down into a series of moves, with a pause between each. I may be wrong about it but if I find myself pushing over with the top hand I just go back to 10 minutes of left hand up, right hand up, static roll casts.

Our primary solutions to rectify bottom hand use seem to be the same then: dominant hand at bottom. Rescue plans differ and can be exotic.

Full covid lockdown here at the moment, I can get to the lake myself, but no teaching.

Any day casting is good! (Planning to take my new 15' out today.)

Have fun and stay safe.

[springer]

I find if you can put a pupils bottom hand in the right place at the end of the d-loop forming move then its quite hard for them to not use it. As has already been said, its got to be far enough away from the body to be in a position to pull with. If the bottom hand is out there then its hard to just push over the top of it unless you pull the bottom hand back as well.

I used to teach that the top hand was a moving fulcrum but after a lot of discussion here some 10yrs ago now I was persuaded that a better way to convey whats happening to the pupil was to say you rotate the handle around a point between your hands.

Starting with non dominant hand up can help, I also find teaching the pupil how to flex the rod properly without a line on it using both hands in equal and opposite measures can help them to get a feel for what should be happening.

[Paul Arden]

I also find teaching the pupil how to flex the rod properly without a line on it using both hands in equal and opposite measures can help them to get a feel for what should be happening.

Very interesting Springer. I do this with the SH rod, and I can see how this would be excellent method when working on this issue. Obviously everyone seems intent nowadays on teaching the lower hand. How do you teach the feel?

I’m looking forward to getting my DHD soonish! Are there any exercises like Circles, Eights and Straights that could be shifted to the lower hand? I’m pretty sure circles would work, not so sure about 8s?

Cheers, Paul