Casting practice with heavy lines

[Paul Arden]

It’s not something I’m familiar with; in rugby we pass using two hands and backwards Anyway I was just really surprised last month when Gary mentioned a common tracking error brought about because of this directional twist of the hand. The most common tracking error I see is completely the opposite (for different reasons) and I’m sure I would have noticed someone rotating the hand in this way at the end of the cast.

It’s very uncommon in fact to see even the palm facing forwards during the stroke with the rod hand. That’s been one of the things I’ve been teaching for a couple of decades and for most people it’s completely new. But even when I teach this they don’t then rotate internally at the end of the stroke. So I think it must be this. Darts are what we played at school during lunchtimes by the way! But I shall definitely pay attention to this from now on. Very interesting.

What about pitching? Do you spin the wrist at the end of the pitch? I was going to say in cricket that we spin the ball the other way but of course it’s possible to spin in both directions. I only learned to spin in one direction before dying of boredom.

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

Hey Paul-

The reason you don't see it in fly casting is the internal forearm and shoulder rotation is a result of what happens before. It would be unusual to see a caster achieve such a dynamic motion, but, I agree with John, if you could tap into even just a little of the power it offers, the reward could be more distance.....If you can still maintain timing and tracking.....of course..

quarterback rotation.jpg (82.97 KiB) Viewed 885 times

Paul rotation.jpg (53.25 KiB) Viewed 885 times

Steve illustrates a slight version of it here, but I have not looked closely enough at his stroke to see if he actually achieves this..

rajeff rotation.jpg (69.46 KiB) Viewed 885 times

Thanks
Phil

[VGB]

I agree with you on the science, Phil! Mel Krieger was one of the great instructors. He divided people into poets and engineers. And like you I think it’s a mixture of both. Mostly however I think it’s like teaching poetry.

Feeling philosophical today, Feynman famously recounted in a filmed interview:

I have a friend who's an artist and he's some times taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say, "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree, I think. And he says, "you see, I as an artist can see how beautiful this is, but you as a scientist, oh, take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing." And I think he's kind of nutty.

First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me, too, I believe, although I might not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is. But I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower that he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside which also have a beauty. I mean, it's not just beauty at this dimension of one centimeter: there is also beauty at a smaller dimension, the inner structure...also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower are evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting -- it means that insects can see the color.

It adds a question -- does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms that are...why is it aesthetic, all kinds of interesting questions which a science knowledge only adds to the excitement and mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.

I like threads about lines more than rods because delivering the fly to a particular spot in a particular manner is the object of the exercise, not bending rods.

regards

Lao Tzu

[Lasse Karlsson]

I like threads about lines more than rods because delivering the fly to a particular spot in a particular manner is the object of the exercise, not bending rods.

regards

Lao Tzu

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

Hi Phil,

This is something I’ve been playing with, primarily for tracking on the forward cast. One of the problems I see with beginning the forward cast from such a position however is the constraints of the haul. It is an area I am currently researching, as I know is John.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

Force application isn’t very well explained. How do you explain a feeling?

Hi Paul,
For many decades teaching to move the rod tip in a straight line from RSP0 to RSP1 (during the casting stroke, if you prefer) was the number one bullshit mantra. Why? Because nearly no one really saw the details of the tip path. Still today I find all the same old mistakes about tip path in the latest Loop magazine provided by the biggest instructor organisation of all.
But no wonder to me. Even here on SL I was and probably still will be told many times how fantastic the one all overriding essential is in teaching fly casting. It clearly violates casting reality in many points (not just one), but we are used to cast offside cameras mostly and just watching the line fly without realising the details. Remember when you told me to not have understood my BDB drawing for years? That holds true for many, no doubt. And how could it be different, we are used/trained to rely (work with) vague information (poor cues).
If you tell someone, that he is soon going to feel the flat surface to change into a slightly bumpy one (moving his hand over a table blindfolded), do you think he has an idea what's coming?
Of course he has. We have learnt to use feel for as long as we have sight. And that has advantages and disadvantages for using both, feeling and watching.

I agree with Lasse, it is what one makes it to be.
Regards
Bernd

[Phil Blackmar]

Hi Bernd-

Re: SLP, I am experimenting with a cast with a fiberglass rod where I start the forward cast at about 1 o'clock followed by a quick downward rotational force on the top of the rod which bends the rod considerably and drops the rod tip. Once I "feel" like I am at MCL, I then translate and rotate to finish the cast. I am doing this with a 7 wt 8 ft rod casting 70-90 feet with a saltwater fly. It leads me to the question: is an SLP from MCL to RSP1 most important?

Secondly-regarding your comments on feel, what are your impressions of having someone watch themselves in a mirror going thru a motion per your instructions. You then ask them to describe what they feel? Once they can describe their feels, you ask them to watch the line and attach the characteristics of the loop and fly leg to a feel.

Thank you Bernd
Phil

[Paul Arden]

Hi Bernd,

20 years ago when we had planned to do a further instructors education with Bill Gammel, the first thing he told he fixes is instructors taking RSP too literally.

It’s unfortunate that the people following along take these things at face value. It’s from one extreme to another. Like a ping pong ball! Eventually it will settle in the middle.

Just as well we all still have open minds to learn, right?

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

This “fear of learning something new” is not just restricted to flycasting instructors by the way. I have a friend who is a/the adult swim coach in Malaysia. He was very surprised to find motor learning books around my boat and to discover that even after 28 years of teaching that I’m still learning. And even more so when I told him that the past four years have been the most significant.

It seems that he had stopped learning too. So I’m passing on to him the books that are commonly recommended here. He’ll be better for it that’s for sure. And inspired even.

Lack of external cues in swim coaching is driving me wild. At least they work on – and concentrate on – drills. Students even expect it. As in fact many do in flycasting too of course.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

My wife has a fear of me learning something new, I’m taking up the saxophone next year but she has heard me singing and knows my musical limitations.