6 step TEACHING method

[Morsie]

Usually with the idea in their heads that they have to “load” it or get it bent sufficiently to boing line forwards

It can also be caused by locked joints, an absence of flexibility, or any sort of kinetic sequence that produces no bend in the rod.

[Stoatstail50]

Merry Christmas

Yes, but I’m not sure you need hands on to spot that this is happening Peter. See it all the time.

I also agree with the kinetic chain stuff both you and Bernd have described in the Roll cast post. Smooth controlled flow through the kinetic chain is an important kinaesthetic skill to develop.

The thing is that hands on on doesn’t do that. This is because it’s not the caster doing the moving, they’re just along for the ride. If we’re going to teach someone progressive force application through successive joints and levers, they need to be the ones applying the force, not the instructor. People learn best when they’re doing it for themselves.

[Torsten]

Merry Christmas Paul,

I know, we are a bit different, Pom. I also don’t like it. I actually had a student run away from me. I stopped using it after that. Elsewhere it’s fine. I never used it with the Orang Asli but I left one of them to teach a new guy from their village. And he used it and it was effective.

sure that you've not grabbed his arse

To be serious, actually I've found that a great part of that video, this topic is seldom mentioned.

Greetings,
Torsten

[Paul Arden]

For me it’s cultural. A lot of those studies compare strangers/friends/family. Mark is taking the position of teaching as a stranger. But ultimately hopefully we become friends. In some places we are already friends and friendships happen quicker. So it really just depends.

It was fascinating with the OA. How they work together. How they learn and live together is amazing. I do think that’s more of our natural state than how most of us live nowadays.

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

Most of mine are exactly that Paul…never met them before, they’re not my mates.

I think that the defensive reaction exemplified by Pom is what I’ve witnessed more than anything when it’s used but it’s not the only reason I don’t use hands on.

The caster isn’t actively reproducing the inputs for the exercise, the instructor is.

The objective of the exercise, if there is one, is usually poorly understood which means the caster not only doesn’t know why they’re doing whatever they’re doing, they have no way to check if they’re doing it right.

If the objective is to set an idea of pattern. It requires a caster to independently reproduce something, which they haven’t seen, after a delay. It’s much easier to use synchronisation or copying which is real-time and performed entirely by the caster…which is how they learn.

If the objective is to establish “feel” as a cue it is turning the usual hierarchy of sensory cueing on its head. Which, for beginners or relative novices is distinctly unhelpful if you’re promoting visual cueing throughout a lesson.

If you try this with experts they’ll give you a very funny look.

Reversion to previous behaviour is almost immediate after the instructor stops being involved. This is only my observation of course.

It’s not easily transferable to an independent practice routine.

Obviously many people see value in it…but these are some of the reasons why I don’t do it. There may be more but it’s Christmas and I have to drink winter ale, eat nuts and chocolate.

Have a merry

[VGB]

I thought it might be worth revisiting this before I open the sherry:

https://perceptionaction.com/96-2/

Good ole Santa

[Bernd Ziesche]

The thing is that hands on on doesn’t do that. This is because it’s not the caster doing the moving, they’re just along for the ride. If we’re going to teach someone progressive force application through successive joints and levers, they need to be the ones applying the force, not the instructor. People learn best when they’re doing it for themselves.

Hi Mark,
I have a pretty different experience in this.
My hand on, and in 95% the student drives it, no matter what I say. I often use this to analyse (feel) slight yet too uneven moves.
His hand on, and in 70% they automatically let me drive it. I don't have to say anything about who'll drive here.
After my students felt whatever I wanted them to feel, they improve and it sticks. The improvement often comes within their very next (first) cast. Often it was about suddenly understanding how smoothness feels, as well as how small force application feels.
All this... we talking about 1 minute the most. Then I have them cast themselv anyway. It's not like a 5 min exercise. Not sure you got this aspect.
Cheers
B

[Bernd Ziesche]

I don’t use hands on.

If you don't use hands on, then what from is your conclusion

The caster isn’t actively reproducing the inputs for the exercise, the instructor is.

The objective of the exercise, if there is one, is usually poorly understood which means the caster not only doesn’t know why they’re doing whatever they’re doing, they have no way to check if they’re doing it right.

coming from?

Why would I ever do anything, not just hands on, without having an objective?
Doesn't make any sense to me. I always and in every step have a particular objective.
If my objective for whatever exercise is understood properly or not ONLY ever my student shows me.
Cheers
B

[Stoatstail50]

Well…my conclusions are both from experience and observation, as a consequence of that… and all the other reasons I’ve explained, I don’t use it.

After my students felt whatever I wanted them to feel, they improve and it sticks. The improvement often comes within their very next (first) cast. Often it was about suddenly understanding how smoothness feels, as well as how small force application feels.
All this... we talking about 1 minute the most.

Bernd if it works for your casters that’s great. Many experienced casting instructors over here think what I say about this is nonsense. Even more across the pond consider these opinions to be a threat to the natural world order.

It is perhaps my problem alone because I don’t know, given the underlying objectives I have for a lesson, how to create a meaningful objective from this exercise. Plus, I don’t know how to make a meaningful cue for my caster out of it. If I cant easily cue it and I cant easily objectivise it I dump it.

Way it is

[Bernd Ziesche]

Minute 22:30
Good example of a quick help to make the student see what should be seen from the student's perspective. How hovering looks like, when done right.

The natural world order probably remains as it is.