What do you need to know.

[Bernd Ziesche]

What is “muscle memory” What are the normal methods for disrupting it?
What are the three types of practice and when should they be used in casting instruction?

Hi Mark,
I don't want disrupt muscle memory at all, but help to built up a proper muscle memory. Perhabs you meant poor muscle memory not muscle memory in general?

What's your take on these 2?
Thanks
Bernd

Muscle memory is about specificity for me...a grooved in pattern of behaviour.

If you're teaching patterns this isn't an issue but if you're teaching wide ranges of motion in reaction to wide ranges of environmental stimulae, I want adaptability not pattern. So if a caster is stuck in narrow ranges of motion I want to disrupt this in some way to generate more reactive behaviours.

Did you answer those your original 2 questions? If so I missed to understand. (sorry)

If you could choose between a student having a muscle memory which he can fill and use and one without, which one you'd prefer?

[Stoatstail50]

My answer to the first is that it is “ a grooved in pattern of behaviour “ and the second that it is disrupted by error amplification or old way/new way drills.

I’d much prefer a student to have a wide range of controlled motion than a narrow one. Beginners clearly have none at all. Most casters arrive with an ideal fixed pattern in their heads which they are trying to replicate, sometimes it’s locked in, sometimes it’s not. Either way it’s a pia.

If you’re asking about practice I use blocked, serial and random practice depending on the objective.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Mark,
what do you think how long it takes for a beginner to have built a muscle memory for fly casting, just overhead false casting in the first place?

I think a muscle memory is the ability to store certain muscle movements and use them at any time without thinking much about it.
Like when I use a bike after 20 years of not having used it. It just goes well, while I better focus on traffic.
Behaviour is more about our brain, no?
Cheers
B

[Stoatstail50]

Mark,
what do you think how long it takes for a beginner to have built a muscle memory for fly casting, just overhead false casting in the first place?

Cheers
B

No idea…don’t think about it.

I think a muscle memory is the ability to store certain muscle movements and use them at any time without thinking much about it.
Like when I use a bike after 20 years of not having used it. It just goes well, while I better focus on traffic.

You could certainly look at it like that yes. But the system you are managing on a bike is largely pattern stable. We, however, teach people to react to highly variable environmental conditions and it is not, in this context, pattern stable. This is a different cognitive demand to riding a bike.

It doesn’t mean we can’t use patterns in teaching but it changes how we use them. A fixed idealised behaviour is not a good objective for an angler on the water who needs maximum behavioural flexibility to meet high objective variability. It is a very good objective for a CI candidate however who has low objective variability.

Behaviour is more about our brain, no?

Learning behaviour is, definitely. We teach brains not bodies…it pays us to know a wee bit about how brains work.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Learning behaviour is, definitely. We teach brains not bodies…it pays us to know a wee bit about how brains work.

I am all ears, if you know how the female brain works. I sure as hell have no clue!

Interesting, you and I understand the role of the muscle memory quite different, I think.
In my experience smooth force application is THE biggest part to get across. If I start my lesson with that, I most likely won't see much tailings thruout the lesson. And some of issues for those bringing some troubles will be gone, too. I believe our muscle memory help big time to keep smooth acceleration.
I don't think it is much different from how it works in riding the bike. Same with hauling. Once it's there, it sticks. Not 100% in performance level (same for riding the bike), but hauling works. I don't get students returning, because the hauling has gone. They come for further fine tuning, yes. Or widening the range or improving distance and so on. But the haul sticks even without training.
Entering the water first time can be tricky, if it is a novice having had just one lesson. But again, once the hauling is done here, too.... it sticks.
This is the main reason, I keep the lines short. Longer lines = compensated movements = poor muscle memory! Seen that thousands of times. Did it myself.

[Stoatstail50]

. I am all ears,

Don’t listen to me…listen to the experts Rob Grays perception action podcast is very interesting. Or you could read about it…the three books most commonly quoted on here are :

“How we learn to move” by Rob Gray.
“ The language of coaching” by Nick Winkelman.
“ Practice perfect” by Doug Lemov

All of these are well worth the read but there are many, many others. Most of the things we’re discussing in the abstract are heavily researched in other sports…we are not at all special.

Google is handy for research too.

[Paul Arden]

Riding a bike is an interesting example. How would you teach someone who has never ridden a bike, to ride a mountain bike down a mountain? The first thing I would do is remove the mountain.

What is blocked, serial and random practise examples please, Mark? I’m sure many people on this Board are unfamiliar with these terms.

Thanks,
Paul

[Stoatstail50]

Blocked is multiple repetitions of the same movement, same objective. This is “do 10 PULDs to a target at 30” stuff. When the task objectives don’t change. Task 1 of the CI.

Serial is repetitions involving a change from one movement to the next in a sequence. Or a change in objectives. Task 2 of the old CI, changing from wide to narrow loops. Transitioning through trajectories, changes of plane. Old way/new way, error amplification. All serial.

Random is..well…random. Transitions between movement but in no particular order. This is usually instructor directed. The first two work as takeaways, random needs a ringmaster.

The first is about ironing in specific movements, Bernd’s muscle memory. We all use it to some extent and it’s the basis for quite a lot of instructor practice routines where tasks are highly constrained. The objective is to minimise variation.

The second and third are useful if your objective is maximising adaptability. Broadening ranges of control rather than narrowing them. Still, serial practice is useful for assessment tasks requiring transitions. accuracy, change of plane etc. Then you get Blocked Serial practice probably

If your lesson is stepped or spiralling or you’re using a Borger style modular approach then Serial drilling or Practice is going to be your best bet because this is how you’re going to stick your modules together or add layers to the performance. Through transition.If you’re training a CI you’re more likely to use blocked practice to refine technique.

Lots of research out there on this too.

[Will]

Great stuff from Mark.

I’d add:

My interpretation is that blocked practice is good for introducing new skills, and for beginners to get basic movement? Serial and random is great once the basics are sorted.

The other really interesting thing is that there is a lot of research which says:

1. Although blocked practice give the best performance in the lesson…

2. Serial and random practice result in better retention of skills in the days after the lesson.

A similar comparison is made between internal and external cues.

All of which makes it intuitively difficult for most instructors (including me) to judge what works best. What gives quick results in a lesson may not be the best thing to help embed skills longer term. Nightmare when most of your lessons are one-offs!

W.

[Stoatstail50]

I’ve got a theory about blocked practice and pattern recognition Will…going to start a new thread