Pattern recognition

[VGB]

You are right Bernd, that fly looks nothing like a grey drake. Do you think you could help?

[Lasse Karlsson]

I wouldn't even know what to tell them, nor would I know what to tell an organisation putting them on master teaching level.

Btw. during Corona, I did not have any instructor candidates for a first time. So I didnt focus on the exam sheet in almost 3 years. Quite some changes! Why is it changing all the time? That tells a lot!
Cheers
B

Hi Bernd

Could you tell me which organisation Sandi and Clay Roberts are certified masters and current members of?
Anybody can claim they are masters, instructors etc.

The tests change because its an ongoing review in a commitee. Commitee members change, new faces have new ideas, some ideas get through review, some even gets into print.
I've been certified in the FFI since 2005, and I have in that time seen and used about 8 different versions if the CI, and about 6 different versions of the MCI test, won't count the THCI and THMCI, not counting how many different drafts, and versions been voted on. If it stayed the same I would be more worried!

Cheers
Lasse

PS. Youtube is 99% crap videos, try finding one that you don't disagree with, or where the teacher/instructor actually does what they say. Lifes too short

[Paul Arden]

I think you’ve misread my post Mark

Somewhere at the beginning you wrote you don’t see the need to teach pattern. In this discussion you say there are a million patterns. In other discussions Vince has said each and every cast is unique.

So if there are a million patterns then it’s not very helpful to us as a coach. I agree.

However I don’t look at it that way. Pattern for me is the general sequence of movement. Say weight shift, torso, shoulder - all moving. Then each stops in sequence and the wrist carries on. That is one pattern we see in Open Stance Distance.

Does it matter if one moves a little bit more or less or at a slightly different angle? Not to me because I’m just looking at the general sequence of movement.

Whereas I think you are looking at the stitching.

When our caster has learned to cast, can vary his cast without conscious effort, and would like to develop his casting to a higher level. Then it’s really about developing pattern IMO. Often for example we see people leading with the hand. This is a type of pattern but it’s not one that I teach.

Broadly speaking I think there are very few patterns. Closed Accuracy, Open Distance, 170, Oval, TLT. A few others. There are some sub variations on these, torque twist, pull back and so on.

Of course we can go ever deeper and take out the microscope but that stuff is best developed by the individual. It’s the overall movement which is where we come in.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

I think that you misread Marks misread Paul

Although I think we should be teaching casting, not casts, we still have to find some way to get casters to recognise these patterns and adapt them to the environmental conditions they’re fishing in.

I think at the moment we are often using blocked practice and a fixed, highly idealised, pattern of behaviour as a means of developing pattern recognition. Once this performance is locked in we might add variation. ………….

I don’t think we need to do it like this…now I’m thinking about it, not sure we need to do it at all in fact.

I read it that casting patterns are presented as the there being only one true pattern for any cast which is grooved in by blocked practice. This methodology does not account for the individual and environmental constraints that are part of real world fishing. Mark suggests there’s a better way, Bernd seems to teach variations of his essentials and I think Mark is suggesting something similar.

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

When we instruct we all have, in our minds, a particular pattern of movement that we want to encourage. A PULD or a Roll Cast or a Single Spey for example. These are abstract patterns of behaviour and we all know that out in the real world they’re going to be performed with a wide range of variation but still conform to the overall imaginary pattern.

Although I think we should be teaching casting, not casts, we still have to find some way to get casters to recognise these patterns and adapt them to the environmental conditions they’re fishing in.

I think at the moment we are often using blocked practice and a fixed, highly idealised, pattern of behaviour as a means of developing pattern recognition. Once this performance is locked in we might add variation.

That’s post number one. Where in there does it suggest we don’t need to teach pattern ??

It says that what we currently tend to do is to pick one example of a pattern and thus place that example in the minds of casters as the “correct” way to perform it. We measure success or failure by the casters capacity to perform this example cast.

But, the ideal performance of this abstract pattern is the one that fits the environmental demands facing the caster on the water.

So I try to teach a caster how to vary inputs to create many variants of the abstract pattern rather than one specific version of it first. I do it so the caster can see and I only feedback on things they can see for themselves.

This isn’t a complex process. It fits the needs of most of the casters I see far better than teaching face the water, elbow up elbow down.

It makes a caster think in terms of possibilities too.

[Paul Arden]

A PULD or a Roll Cast or a Single Spey for example. These are abstract patterns of behaviour

That’s not how I see pattern. I think that may be the root cause of our differences. Pattern for me is the sequence of body movement. Which on the forward cast is (or can be) essentially the same for all of the above.

For example…

50A1A019-4F04-42A5-8196-567D83B7A7E3.jpeg (34.38 KiB) Viewed 493 times

Which one is this?

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

I wouldn't even know what to tell them, nor would I know what to tell an organisation putting them on master teaching level.

Could you tell me which organisation Sandi and Clay Roberts are certified masters and current members of?
Anybody can claim they are masters, instructors etc.

....

PS. Youtube is 99% crap videos, try finding one that you don't disagree with, or where the teacher/instructor actually does what they say. Lifes too short

Hi Lasse,
No, I can't and don't want to waste time and check. The group they are involved didn't say "certified" though, just put em on "master instructor level". They are working with Bass Pro shops for example and get announced that way. That's big enough of an organisation for me.
Anyway we agree here.

Agree about YT either.

Changing the CI test for updating it to the current knowledge is one, running in circles around the old 5Es here is another one. The tailing loop part still leads into confusion. Still they match arc to line length in the first place.
I have zero doubt, you are just one here who could put some parts in the study material much better.
Cheers
B

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Paul,
Is there a difference between style and pattern for you (if so which)?
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

Hi Bernd,

Yes there is. I think of style nowadays as something quite personal. Eg a haircut. Style would be like being able to tell it was Lasse casting whether he was casting accuracy or distance. Both have different patterns but you can still tell it’s Lasse.

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

Which one is this?

No idea...looks like the FC from your old flip flop.

I'm stuck trying to explain this other than saying what I've already said, I'm retiring hurt.