Tracy #7 distance

[NM]

Hi James,
I tend to think that the slide and repositioning is a mistake. It robs you of valuable stroke length. For the same reason, I tend to think that both the closed stance and the short open distance stroke with the thump on top grip like Steve is casting, for most of is not optimal. I am currently working on doing the opposite. To drift further back during the pause while bringing my line hand as far back as possible, to stay low with my legs, and then start the forward cast with the legs and body to generate as much linear forward movement (including through stepping) and body stretch (body preload) as possible before coming forward with the arm. The core movements used in other throwing sports like Javelin is what I would like to copy as much as possible.

Best,
Nils

There's also some good advice from a smart man and outstanding caster in this one. I do like the 170 backcast with the V grip and leading with the elbow better than how Tim does that part, though.
(13) Abstract Hyper-Distance Theory - YouTube

[Paul Arden]

Hi Nils,

It’s possible to turn slide into drag with some awkward hauling arm positioning. The problem I have with that is that it puts the hauling arm into a weak hauling position. I’d rather sacrifice the small amount of drag contribution for a more explosive haul dominated by the elbow straightening.

Cheers, Paul

[whinging pom]

James I’ve just had chance to look back at the Gamefair casting practice before the WC’s .sorry been a busy week in the garden!
From an ordinary joes perspective the casting above looks more fluid, smooth and effortless.
Doubt if I can add much you haven’t seen or discussed but here goes-

The top of the back cast in particular shows this smoothness:- at game fair you could see the individual mechanics of the various actions bringing the back cast to a halt and repositioning to start the forward cast and haul. The above transition is smoother and the actions blend together almost seamlessly in comparison
The rod angle at extremis(above) is a touch more towards horizontal but with less wrist break I think.
In oth words ….think the wrist was cocked further back further at the GM so the angle has come from elsewhere.

The other two things ( apart from her looking more tense at the GM ) is that her back arch seems more pronounced and she’s using her feet a hell of lot more. At the GM she seemed grounded.
That front foot lifting and sliding back particularly on the first cast is possibly what’s achieving some extra back arch and increasing the length of the casting stroke and after reading johns comment above could that be contributing to higher line speed going back?

As usual when I attempt to understand anything technical I expect a one word answer being with N!
Be kind
Pom

Edit: thinking about it at the game fair she was on a pontoon so maybe that’s why she was more grounded

[NM]

Paul,
I think you for the FC can achieve the same explosive haul and, if desired, same front of shoulder arm movement without the slide. Although you are bringing the line hand as far back as possible towards the rod hand while keeping the rod hand still, you don’t really start the haul from back there. The FC should start with the feet, weight shift, and moving the lower body forward, and then turning the shoulders “without moving the arms”. The haul would really start from the same position as you currently do. You can also at the end of the stroke have the same front-of-shoulder elbow straightening. Whether you should, is an open question worth exploring, I think. How much elbow straightening you get is a function of how high you have your hand and how much you lead with the elbow during the middle part of the stroke I believe. There used to be, and still is it seems, fairly large differences with regards to how high the hand is during that part of the stroke among top level ISCS event 2 Casting distance casters.

Nils

[Paul Arden]

Hi Nils,

Do you think this should happen while the loop is unrolling or after loop straight? I agree it’s possible but you could also slide while the loop is unrolling and then take a step or several and accomplish the same thing (assuming you are thinking after loop straight!).

Cheers, Paul

[NM]

Paul,
Mainly after. However, you want all of the line to start moving forward at loop straight. The exact timing of when to start moving the line, rod, and body forward to achieve that would depend on a number of factors. With a long carry and quite a bit of line sag like in trout distance you would have to start pulling the line forward before loop straight. Everything that can help lengthening the forward movement, including stepping, can be beneficial and particularly so when you cannot avoid having some line sag at loop straightening. The optimal degree of rotation in the earlier part of the stroke to some extend also depends on this (due to the BBD effect). You can achieve having close to no line sag at all in the ICSF event 2 T-38 single hand distance event, which allows you to start at, or just after, loop straight, but not in trout distance. I used to have, when I was casting well back in the late 70s, just two backcasts and throw the last one very hard with a thigh and super-fast loop. That hard last BC had two effects I think. It removed any slack and really improved my contact with the line at the start of the delivery cast. On my best cast, I could really feel the line pulling on the rod tip from the get-go, as if the line was to a small degree of “preloading of the rod” (while there is pre-rodbend in plug accuracy and distance casting when the forward stroke starts at max counterflex from a backcast, you don’t have much of that in flycasting, even with the T-38, but…). Rudy Ferris was onto this on that old preload discussion that unfortunately was caught up on that old war on the big spring misconception. The second effect of that hard last BC was that it got my body ready to explode on the forward cast—preloading the body—from that very moment that I felt the line pulling on the rod tip. I am not able to do that today (age and too many decades without any practice).

Stepping is not an alternative to keeping the rod hand still at the beginning of the stroke and starting with moving the lower body forward, and turning the shoulders “without moving the arms.” The latter is essential for achieving the “body preload” and stretch-release that characterize top performance in other throwing sports. Stepping can help delay mowing the arm, though, and through that achieve that stretch-release.

Nils

[John Waters]

Hi Nils,

I agree with you, tension on the rod tip is an important performance indicator. All the focus should be what is happening behind the shoulder.

John

[Paul Arden]

Hi Nils,

Quite a few years ago Mike Heritage lay down on the ground in front of me and would call loop straight. There is indeed a “boing” at this moment. Whether it’s fly line straight or leader straight I’m not sure. Anyway I timed my casts to “hit” this “boing”. Every time I got it right I had terrible forward loops, even to the extent of tailing.

I shall have a play with the haul this week.

Cheers, Paul

[NM]

Interesting Paul. Did you start early or late compared to your normal casting? and did you figure out why you got bad loops and were tailing on those casts? And are you aware of any slomo video studies of this?

Nils

[Paul Arden]

Hi Nils,

I should differentiate between slide, drag and the hit. Slide occurs as the loop is unrolling, I don’t think it can occur after loop straight because of the loss of tension in the line. Drag occurs independent of loop position. The hit is the rapid acceleration of the rod, which is predominantly rotational and is timed with the haul. It is that part that I timed to coincide with loop straight and the only way I could actually be sure of doing this was to have Mike call it (it was his idea actually, because he thought I was too late).

This call out was much earlier than I would normally hit. The results was tails, non straight fly legs and even total loop failures.

I would think that the loop fails because loop straight has a surge of energy that needs to dissipate. if we watch the rod tip at loop straight it deflects the rod tip. This is the bit that casters believe they can utilise. I don’t believe it works!

However if the stroke begins with Drag at this point then I think we are allowing this surge to leave the system. Certainly I am usually sliding at this point.

This was done with a long distance 5WT carry. So 90’ and high line speed. With short line carries, for example accuracy, I can connect with Loop Straight. However I commonly see a “tendency to tail” in good casters who are throwing tight loop backcasts. IMO this can be caused by the caster starting the cast slightly before or at loop straight. The surge deflects the rod tip and sets up a small transverse wave. It’s very subtle indeed. It’s also incredibly difficult to fix.

Cheers, Paul