Teaching (myself) 170 backcast tracking

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

There is no doubt that I can generate more force on my backcast using the 170 technique but my tracking goes all to hell.

I am struggling to keep the legs parallel. I was hoping for vertical, but even off vertical, the loop is far from decent. I commonly achieve better distance with the 170 backcast, even with poor loops, and it should get even better with better tracking.

What is particularly frustrating is that I can easily control the loop or legs with OSD.

Any suggestions?

[Paul Arden]

Hi Gary,

Yep so two targets aligned. One directly behind the shoulder 180 degrees from the front target. You need to look to the target before the casting stroke. The hand needs to travel through the shoulder position as opposed to around the shoulder. For this to happen torso has to twist and preferably arch the back. When returning to cast the other direction this needs to happen in reverse first of course.

I find it usually easier to teach the 170 first with the rod plane just above the horizontal and then picking up to the vertical by leaning back with the body. Foot positioning is important too otherwise you’ll be off balance.

I would start the other way incidentally. Start with the line laid out backwards and the arm at full stretch. Make a cast and then deliver back to full arm stretch. I would build that first as a back hand delivery shot. A common error is to turn the body too much instead of looking over the shoulder. Make sure your back foot is perpendicular and your weight is on this leg. And that you have turned to deliver instead of turning and delivering at the same time.

Many problems are alignment related. Or trying to do too many things at once. I teach stopless forward. Stopless backward. Then ground to ground both directions. Finally like a frisbee and lift to the vertical. Trying to do it all at once is very difficult and takes longer.

But if your targets are aligned, if your rod is in the vertical plane, and if you hand travels through the shoulder position back and forward, then it can only be straight. Often exaggerating a doming hand path, like a windscreen wiper, helps too.

Have your checked your targets using the rod on the ground?

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

Two things helped me

Very loose grip until turnover, basicly the rod is just held by three fingers under the hand cradled up against the forearm. Pointing backwards with the elbow until it can't get any further, and then flop everything over. The loose grip helps align the rod with the line.
Secondly, picking targets and sticking to them. Make sure they really are 180 degrees from each other, along the rodtip, not you.

Oh, and third, getting the haul timing right, too soon and we have a tendency to pull the rodhand out of line, too late and we get a fat loop not morphing like it should.

Pantomiming it slowly is a drill I go to know and again, making sure to exagerate the movements like we did in the early days. It helps in getting the speed up, and watching that bouncing bomb still feels like magic

And lastly, I haven't met any that does 170 vertical, true vertical

Notice the poor tracking






Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

You can try this Gary. Stand in position facing your target and then look around to see your back target. Mark that. Now put the rod on the ground pointing at your front target, walk around to the tip and look along the rod to see where the back target should really be. If you have never done this before then I would expect you to have been 20 or 30 degrees off.

I build the initial 170 over three lessons. Stopless forward cast, delivered off a Roll first and then Overhead to targets (contrasted to pull-back). Stopless Backcast as an off-shoulder delivery. And then I glue them together. I expect 5-10 practise sessions at each stage.

The cues I teach for the 170 are back target, rod past perpendicular to time haul, check the loop form. Front target, look up to see top of rod as it comes through to time haul. Doing this ground to ground at first, to make sure targets are being sighted before the Casting Stroke begins.

The ground to ground stuff is good because it slows everything down. My suggestion however would be to just work on backhand stopless deliveries for 5 or 6 sessions. Throw some hoops out there 50/60/70/80’ and experiment with rod planes vertical to horizontal. This is like a backhand shot and you should be able to look down the length of the rod to see the target.

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Thanks guys!

Plenty to chew on. I appreciate your generosity.

I think I have a pretty good grasp of a lot of it. I was just baffled by my poor tracking.

i went out and played this evening but the 15+ side wind was not real helpful. I did see some improvement after watching Lasses' videos and noted his rod foot forward. I am of similar build and still can bend / twist somewhat. My suspicion was that the closed stance helped by limiting my upper torso rotation.

My weird loops suggested my tracking was nonlinear, I suspected maybe even S shaped. So I went into the porch and played with my laser to check. Sure enough... my default BC stroke with an extreme rod tip distance started inside, moved out, and then back inside as the tip travels behind. Just like it does when there is no hand movement, only shoulder/upper torso rotation.

I think my years of saltwater fishing has me leaning / reaching to put the rod tip at the water and as far forward as possible by default. That is great for hook sets, but requires a lot of upper body rotation to just straighten up. I'm going to try to limit that upper torso rotation so that my hand path gets free to travel straight back and forth.

I put on my wish list a new tablet, preferably large, so that I can video and watch in real time my, and my students casting. I'll let y'all know how (if) I progress... and maybe even be able to upload a video. If only that dang new flyrod I want would quit jumping up to the top of the list!

[Paul Arden]

Hi Gary,

One of the common problems is trying to come through flat with the hand. While the hand travels through the shoulder square position it also travels above and over the top. So you sort of need to get the elbow up.

Maybe try switching back and forward between OSD and 170 on a long carry.

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

170 diagram.jpg[/attachment]On the 170 forward cast, excuse my lack of knowledge of the terms, do you try to maintain acceleration as the arc turns the corner and goes downward?

I've been trying to do this for into the wind shots and it has amazing potential but I just can't quite keep the timing right. I start at shorter distances, 50-60 ft to get the feel for the timing then start lengthening it out and adding more speed. Sometimes I do it right but often I do not. When done correctly, it seems to produce extra line speed and will lay a fly straight out into a brisk wind at 80-90 feet.

I am also much better using a 6/7 fiberglass rod than a 7 graphite...What's up with that????

Thanks
Phil

[Phil Blackmar]

I borrowed this from the Stop revisited thread which may have the answer to this question embedded somewhere.....In this video, Henry does what I am talking about at the end of the cast. The only difference is he does it without as much wrist.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Phil,

Rapid acceleration for me is either around or slightly after the rod butt passes the perpendicular, and finishes pointing at target. The force should be applied as torque, ie not a straight line. In the case of the backcast it comes from the elbow straightening. In the case of the forward cast it comes from the wrist or delayed further by using the Cradle Grip.

2E892598-569D-4D0C-93CC-DD493C789324.jpeg (54.07 KiB) Viewed 595 times

I describe the 170 as being two back-to-back stopless delivery casts. But you can simply just use one in either direction. Then it’s not 170, just stopless. It’s how I cast into a headwind in either direction. Trajectory is set by the position of the line at the end of the previous cast. So into the wind this means a slightly elevated trajectory backcast (this can be just above the horizontal for close shots, or tornadoes) with a downwards trajectory delivery aiming to place the fly 1” above the target.

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

Hi Paul-

Thanks. The way you describe is how I normally make the cast also. You might experiment with what I described and see if it does anything for you. It really adds a little more line speed and lays the fly out better but it is so sensitive precise timing.

All the best
Phil