Moderator: Torsten
So is it a fair assumption that firm grips are not common in competition, and that any damping is a happy side effect?I think the main reason we see a loose grip is for speed of the rod turnover
Hi Vince,VGB wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:46 am With parts of the grip disengaged as I showed, you are limiting surface area contact and limiting the amount of pressure you can bring to bear.
With a closed grip as you have shown, it’s impossible to say what degree of pressure you are applying to the grip. I would suggest that your top picture is not a strong grip because the forefinger is not engaged as it would be in a pinch, crush or all round grip.
For consistency and clarity, I’m using the Longman dictionary definition:
From an instructional point of view, a very firm grip tightens the forearm and reduces the range and fluidity of motion. Moreover, the teaching of a firm grip appears to be based upon an incorrect theoretical construct and that is how I used to cast until one of my early instructors threatened to tape my middle and ring fingers up unless I got away from the 3 white knuckles.a firm grip/hold/grasp etc - if you have something in a firm grip etc, you are holding it tightly and strongly
I don’t know how closely you followed the thread but only Lasse offered a teaching technique with his budgie, everyone else was either firm grip or we do “something” automatically. The instructosphere seems to have forgotten this learning process because for most of them it is autonomous behaviour.
As a matter of interest, how easy is it to engage your proposed flop with a firm grip, whilst braking with the forearm?
Regards
Vince
I think that we do exercise a firm grip while we overcome the initial torque and relax the grip somewhat when the rod is in motion, whilst torque is reducing and the rod accelerating. After loop formation, we may relax the grip further for damping if required before gripping the budgie to stop it flying away.The grip in the top photo has rotated a 3 metre rod and a 38 gram line that is 16 or 17 metres long, it was strong enough to achieve that level of performance (whatever the cast measured) but the only way to test the strength of any grip would be to measure it.
What I think occurs during flailing movements is that the wrist is stabilised, so that there is no radial or ulnar deviation. This should not overly inhibit flexion/extension, as per a forehand and a backhand slap. This slapping motion should occur as we are relaxing our grip with reducing torque. I think that this is partly how I do short range, long leader/dry fly casts but it does leave me with a large counterflex to deal with, hence my interest in damping.A flailing wrist movement will not be achieved when the rod is held tightly and strongly. What you need to do to both optimise and control that flailing movement is to ensure that the rod does not twist away from the casting plane during turnover. How the rod is held in the hand delivers that control.
Sorry, to answer the first part, I don’t know. It’s very difficult to delay rotation with a tense grip. Where a tight grip is common, is accuracy, where we rotate through the stroke. With stiff rods I get hand cramps after about ten-fifteen minutes of comp accuracy. Whereas I can cast distance for hours without this problem. I’m certainly not alone in either either.So is it a fair assumption that firm grips are not common in competition, and that any damping is a happy side effect?
During all sporting activities our bodies interact with the external environment and experience externally applied forces. These forces induce vibrations and oscillations within the tissues of the body. Tissue vibrations can be induced from impact related events where either a part of the body or sporting equipment in contact with the body collides with an object. Examples of this are the impact shocks that are experienced through the leg when the heel strikes the ground during each running stride or the impact shock that occurs when a racquet is used to hit a ball. The initial impact causes vibrations within the soft tissues, after which the tissues continue to oscillate as a free vibration—that is, vibrating at their natural frequency, with the amplitude of these vibrations decaying because of damping within the tissues. Tissue vibrations can also be induced when the body experiences more continuous forms of vibration, such as may occur through the legs during skiing across a groomed slope or through the arms during bike riding. A continuously oscillating input force drives the soft tissue vibrations to be at the same frequency as the input force, but the amplitude of the vibrations will be greatest if the natural frequency of the tissues is close to that of the input force (resonance); however, the amplitude of these larger amplitude vibrations can be reduced by damping from the tissues. Therefore we can expect to experience soft tissue vibrations in all sporting activities, and the amplitude and frequency of these vibrations is partly determined by the natural frequency and damping characteristics of the tissues.
The body relies on a range of structures and mechanisms to regulate the transmission of impact shocks and vibrations through the body including: bone, cartilage, synovial fluids, soft tissues, joint kinematics, and muscular activity. Changes in joint kinematics and muscle activity can be controlled on a short time scale and are used by the body to change its vibration response to external forces. It has been proposed that the body has a strategy of “tuning” its muscle activity to reduce its soft tissue vibrations in an attempt to reduce such deleterious effects.8 This idea would predict that the level of muscle activity used for a particular movement task is, to some degree, dependent on the interaction between the body and the externally applied vibration forces. It has been proposed that vibrations could be used as a training aid. However, prolonged exposure to vibrations has been shown to have detrimental effects on the soft tissues, including muscle fatigue,9 reductions in motor unit firing rates and muscle contraction force,10,11 decreases in nerve conduction velocity, and attenuated perception.12
The natural frequency of a vibrating system depends on its stiffness and mass. Within the skeletal muscles, each cross bridge between the actin and myosin myofilaments generates some stiffness,13 and so the tissue stiffness (and therefore natural frequency) can be increased with increases in muscle activity. Indeed, studies have shown that increases in the natural frequency of whole muscle groups do concur with the joint torques developed by the muscle and typically range between 10 and 50 Hz for the lower extremity muscles (zero to maximal activity14). Muscles can also damp externally applied vibrations, and, indeed, more vibration energy is absorbed by activated muscle15 than by muscles in rigor,16 suggesting that the active cross bridge cycling is an important part of the damping process. Studies have shown that the damping coefficients of whole muscle groups increase with muscle activity,15,17 supporting the idea that the cross bridge mechanisms are important.[u] A maximally activated muscle can damp free vibrations so that the tissue oscillations are virtually eliminated after a couple of cycles
