wrist based rotation

[Bernd Ziesche]

So there are two ways of using the wrist, Carol.

1 One is to see it as a link that allows momentum to transfer from the body to the rod. This is us braking the forearm (and other parts of the body, prior to this) and allowing the wrist to freely flop over.

2 The other is to try to engage the wrist muscles to flip the rod over physically.

About 3 1/2 years ago, as a result of lockdown conversations with John and Phil, I really started to explore 1 and to think more in terms of momentum transfer. I think the wrist flops, or to use John’s term “flails”, faster than we can engage it. We cast faster and for less effort.

If that's correct, then:

1 = loss in speed, because the rod-line provides force against what you had achieved and now just let go.

2 = even more loss

[Bernd Ziesche]

Being the last piece in the kinetic chain makes sense. It makes me think of the end of a tapered line traveling the fastest. Anyway, done correctly, the wrist rotation adds the most acceleration for the least amount of effort at the last moment. That is why it’s so critical in the roll cast, right?

Hello Carol,
In what moment of the cast you think the end of the tapered line travels the fastest and why?

Paul claims, that the wrist rotation does NOT add any acceleration, but just allows to keep/transfer what you had pre wrist based rod hand rotation.

About the roll cast... this is about positioning the rotation as close the end of your stroke as possible. This way you have:
1. More life line (line in motion) and
2. Less dead line
The life line is the motor for the dead line (anchor part).
Yes, it also allows to produce proper speed, but key is in getting more life line (as Aitor started to call it).
Regards
Bernd

[Paul Arden]

In my understanding the kinetic chain is about how to use joints and muscles of our body to have each part in the chain INCREASE (add up) speed and also manage direction.

I think you are focused on the summation of moving parts? Weight shift moving, torso twist moving, shoulder, elbow moving, wrist moving?

No I don’t see it that way. I’m focused on transfer of kinetic energy.

https://studiousguy.com/biomechanics-of ... lin-throw/

During the throw, the arm muscles get involved only after the major muscles of the feet, legs, hips, and torso have properly transferred the motion. The player must keep his/her arm as relaxed as possible to achieve a good throw.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

I think you are focused on the summation of moving parts? Weight shift moving, torso twist moving, shoulder, elbow moving, wrist moving?

No I don’t see it that way. I’m focused on transfer of kinetic energy.

Yes, I got it....
"The momentum is coming from the ground". Maybe we best put the rod directly on the ground though.

Kinetic energy isn't entering my fly rod by any other but me applying force. Yes, in a way I use my muscles and joints to adjust speed and direction.

[Bernd Ziesche]

I still think there are many ways to use one or a combination of our body parts.
Everyone however asks for applying force in my understanding.
I don't think using a body part without applying force is possible. I believe in one way or another some muscles always have to work.
Sure I can more or less relax a grip. Still I am holding my rod! For that are muscles in use. Otherwise my rod drios down...

[Paul Arden]

There are lots of studies on the biomechanics of throwing. Both javelin and baseball pitching have been studied in depth and you can find them all over the Web. Flycasting for me is no different. We have constraints of course, but ultimately we are throwing.

https://www.physio-pedia.com/Throwing_Biomechanics

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

During the throw, the arm muscles get involved only after the major muscles of the feet, legs, hips, and torso have properly transferred the motion. The player must keep his/her arm as relaxed as possible to achieve a good throw.

100% agree.
THE ARM MUSCLES GET INVOLVED
in a relaxed, not cramping way...
Of course. Still they (the muscles) are in use...

[Bernd Ziesche]

Flycasting for me is no different.

In my opinion they are all individual and different. Yes, there are simularities.
Still a great pitcher isn't an expert fly caster, nore is a great javellin expert a great pitcher.
Everyone has to learn the details of each sport and the resistance profile during a javellin, a baseball or a fly rod throw differs.
Even within fly casting we have quite differences from one to the next type of cast.
Too easy to say it to all be same imo.

[Paul Arden]

In terms of the kinetic chain and the body acting as whip, in other words the biomechanics of throwing, they *can* be the same. I think flycasting technique is much improved when looked at in this light. IMO flycasting coaching is decades behind other sports.

Cheers, Paul

[Graeme H]

Paul,

If it's true that you are not using any force through your wrist and that you're just letting the momentum of the rod carry itself forward as rotation, we'd easily be able to see that manifesting in the bend of the rod. If there is any bend maintained during the rotation of your wrist, you are applying force through your wrist. Force against the line is the only thing keeping the rod bent.

When you stop applying force, the rod will begin to straighten immediately. This is the same concept as prematurely stopping the haul, where we see the rod straighten and the tip lift.

Cheers,
Graeme