Teaching acceleration

[Bernd Ziesche]

Let’s say I have a caster rotating all the way through a roll cast delivery, wide loop, piled line. I coach for a flatter longer stroke with late rotation which the caster performs in the lesson. By your definition the caster has learned to do this. By the standard, policemans, definition, and mine, they have not, they will only have “learned” it if they can consistently reproduce it over time.

Hi Mark,
My definition of "he has learnt it" indeed is like that.
Now we see that caster a year later. He does a fine roll cast. You will then say, that he was in your lesson, but did not learn to roll cast. Instead he learnt it post the lesson when being on his own. In my point of view he learnt to understand the cast in the lesson and trained afterwards to make use of what he learnt.
Bottom line by your view your students dont learn any movements in your lessons, right? Why exactly do they need you instead of watching a YT video delivering the how?
Cheers
B

[Bernd Ziesche]

You know how often I slightly step in for tuning a student's movements within an exercise to avoid him training some ineffective movement (wasting efficiency)?

Blimey. So they can only learn and train in your presence?

Mate,
My point was to teach, that training ineffective (faulty) movements does not help. Exactly what my students need to understand when I will not be there. In my lesson they learn what and how to train. The typical mistakes most run into will all be covered in the lesson. Exactly what makes for a better training post the lesson.
If I dont correct these, they will take the faulty performance home and train a lot of shit. Very clear to me. And they most likely will never come over it, because they didnt gain the exp. what matters in training and how to avoid running down the wrong road.
Cheers
B

[VGB]

So thanks Mark and Vince!! I’ve been living in a cupboard quite unnecessarily.

That’s very gracious of you to say so Paul, it takes bollox to change your mind publicly. It won’t stop me getting up your nose, whenever I have too much time on my hands

By the way Will should get an honourable mention, he started the ball rolling long before I looked at the topic.

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

Obviously my experience in my own learning curve is completely different. I trained thousands of hours. Often with slow progress.
Every now and then I was given a slight piece of "how to", which in 2 minutes improved my casting more than the previous 2 years of training.
Knowing the how clearly was, what made me move forward quickly and by far most efficient and effective.
When I see people fishing I often can tell straight away, if they had a proper casting lesson or not. If not, there usually is a lot of basic understanding and proper control missing.
Thousands of hours training, but the true big points I made within a few hours, if not minutes.
Cheers
B

[VGB]

My definition of "he has learnt it" indeed is like that.
Now we see that caster a year later. He does a fine roll cast. You will then say, that he was in your lesson, but did not learn to roll cast. Instead he learnt it post the lesson when being on his own. In my point of view he learnt to understand the cast in the lesson and trained afterwards to make use of what he learnt.

There appears to be 2 views on the table Bernd, yours and the scientific world Following the science, I can observe where the student is along the Fitts and Posner learning curve and understand how they are working, what available mental capacity they have to spare. Funny thing is I knew this before I started down the instructor route because of trials work that I had done in my day job and knowing this made my transition to instructing much easier.

Obviously my experience in my own learning curve is completely different. I trained thousands of hours.

If only you’d met a decent instructor, you could have become great in an hour

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

Bottom line by your view your students dont learn any movements in your lessons, right? Why exactly do they need you instead of watching a YT video delivering the how?

I have no evidence that they have learned anything Bernd, even though I have plenty of evidence that they can perform something new. Learning is a process that happens over time.

However, you’re right of course, it’s perfectly possible for someone to learn independently without ever seeing an instructor…or me. This can be a long unfiltered learning process stuffed with useless or misleading information and cockeyed, often conflicting, “how to do its”. If they do see an instructor…or me, then it’s quite likely that the learning process will be shorter and more effective.

Even though I may only see a caster once, I believe the way lesson content is delivered can have a significant influence on future outcomes for a learner. Personally, I want to become as proficient at that as I can be. I think my responsibility is to do the best I can to make the process as effective as possible for a client and that, in my view anyway, involves learning about how people learn.

I think that feedback on the MCI continuing education program and page after page on here and other online media indicates that this is not at all a mainstream position in the fly casting instructor community.

[Paul Arden]

Learning is arguably having moved something from the short term memory to the long term memory. You won’t know if someone has actually learned something until you meet them again.

More and more I want my students to “explore” techniques and not do as I do, or do as I say. The learning predominantly happens between lessons, not during. We help create this by structuring their training.

Having lessons and no practise, doesn’t see the student return to where they left off at the end of the previous lesson, but you actually have to give most of the lesson again. Very little is actually retained without practise.

Getting up my nose can be a good thing Vince. I don’t learn from people agreeing with me all the time. Good to hear that Will has common sense, unlike me

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

More and more I want my students to “explore” techniques and not do as I do, or do as I say. The learning predominantly happens between lessons, not during. We help create this by structuring their training.

It’s a great way of getting students consciously engaged with learning, instead of mindlessly repeating the same task. If I get up and running with more regular club stuff, I would set puzzles that mimic realistic fishing problems, like the Danish games. It’s also a different measure of performance. Instead of the length of the string that we can do a task with, we could measure performance by ability to adapt to tasks. This can even be applied to expert casters, in a similar way to Malik working out how many ways he could do the Svirgilato.

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

There appears to be 2 views on the table Bernd, yours and the scientific world

Hi Vince,
I have said it several times now: It's not my definition of the verb learning. Oxford university is quite huge in history. Over 400 years of studying and offering language details. Used by scientists, researches and many academics from all over the world they provide the complete history of this verb. I could not find a definition similuar to the one you guys are using in their archieve.
Here's again the major definition:

to gain knowledge or skill by studying, from experience, from being taught, etc.

An important aspect for me has always been to observe the learning curve of students as well as my own one.

According to you guys, there is no learning curve at all, because you don't call it learning pre a specific moment in time (when the desired performance has reached whatever level and sticks forever). Only problem, you guys yet didn't tell me what moment in time that is. You only said, that it's not at the end of a one day lesson, not at the end of a two day lesson, but after a long time. Whatever a long time is, I have no clue.

Learning curve:

the rate at which you learn a new subject or a new skill

Or other:

learning speed over time

I can observe this curve thruout a first lesson. Right where students start the process of learning.
You guys can't see any learning curve, because without learning there obviously is no learning curve.

You miss a (for me) very imprtant tool to optimize my teaching. I clearly could tell efficiency of different tools in my teaching box by comparing the outcome of using them by comparing learning curves. No need to tell you guys may find tons of studies about this (by far not only those in regard of cost savings in the industry) and why it's worth to check for learning curves and speed of progress.
It's a great indicator for the progress in learning. Well, for those who understand learning as a process, not as a certain point in time long after for example a lesson (or quite some training).

There is no way you guys may convince me, that there isn't a process of gaining both knowledge and skills starting straight away in all my lessons. I prefer to check this in the only place possible anyway. That is the abilities of my students at any time during short post and long post the lesson or lessons.

By the way Paul,
I tell my students, that not going to practise with what was learnt today, I will meet them at the same point, where we started the lesson after a year has passed. So I see this even more drastically/dramatically as you do.
Cheers
Bernd

[Bernd Ziesche]

More and more I want my students to “explore” techniques

It’s a great way of getting students consciously engaged with learning, instead of mindlessly repeating the same task.

Vince,

Paul now calls it EXPLORING BECAUSE you guys now all the way explained it not to be learning.
All of a sudden now you call it LEARNING.

That aside I don't know what mindlessly repeating is. But I can tell you, you won't find any guys who have repeated the same type of cast more often than Paul and Steve Rajeff. Paul had a time, in which for years he was training hours every day. Many times repeating the exact same types of casts. Steve is probably the most focused guy when it comes to accuracy. Is that mindless? Not at all in my book. I call it the never ending process of learning.
Cheers
Bernd