Dissecting the haul

[Bernd Ziesche]

But waves are waves, and grouping like entities enables consistency and efficiency in a lesson or discussion. Traffic on a freeway consists of motor vehicles. We don't need to say the BMWs, Mercedes, Skodas and Fords move with certain speeds in certain lanes. We can group them and call them cars, since they all behave the same way on the road. Singling out individual cars with a brand name has purpose but saying the Ford is not a car is incorrect.

Hi Graeme,
Nothing bad in your way of teaching in my point of view. Sounds fine to me and you did check the outcome many times and got proved to be on a successful track.
The above translated into what we have:
We have different fly line labels like RIO, SA, barstool, CORTLAND. Each label has different line series like Outbound short or outbound long. Same for your car label examples. The overall term like cars is fly lines. Now you can talk about cars moving in waves over the freeway or fly lines move in waves. I bet it both holds true to some degree, but no more than that, I think.
Problem may start when one student has studied physics and connects lots of formulas with the term wave. Sure you can handle this well though! I prefer to stick with the term loop only.
Thanks for all your effort to explain your thoughts!
Cheers
Bernd

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Problem may start when one student has studied physics and connects lots of formulas with the term wave.
Cheers
Bernd

I'm not a physics student who studied wave formulas, but I can attest to having problems with flycasting terms that contradict with terms I hold from my youth after being brought up by military boatsmen...

From the US Army Military Mountaineer Knot Course:

b. Terms used in rope work.
(1) Bight: A bend in the rope in which the rope does not cross itself.
(2) Double Bight: A bend in a doubled rope in which the ropes do not cross themselves.
(3) Loop: A bend in the rope in which the rope crosses itself.
(a) Overhand Loop: The running end over the standing end.
(b) Underhand Loop: The running end under the standing end

So... its kind of funny to observe arguments over nomenclature when...

[Paul Arden]

IMG_3658.jpeg (78.22 KiB) Viewed 645 times

I found this is a handbook of knots, Gary. It seems even knottologists have different definitions

Cheers, Paul

[Graeme H]

If anybody wants to play with the wave equation for six false casts, I have data.

Cheers,
Graeme

[Lou Bruno]

If we stop rotating before the fastest haul speed is achieved, then the rod will begin to straighten because the total force being applied to the line is reducing. Generally, there are few problems in this cast.

If we stop hauling before we finish rotating, the rod will begin to straighten because the total force being applied to the line is reducing. This cast produces tailing loops.

These statements are correct but approximate; a better reference is peak haul velocity timing versus MAV timing.

At some point in rotation the rod will start to straighten. Server Sadik said this 10 years ago and he was right.

And so do I since 2010, the last time being here in post #43:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3990&start=40
If the rod is too fast for the cast, it straightens before MAV, if it is too slow it straightens after MAV, but this is a question of milliseconds (maximum 50), usually invisible to sight.

I believe, that the haul has no impact on rod bend WHEN the rod already has some serious bend. The haul doesn't reach enough force.

I would say it has little visible impact since the rod stiffness has largely increased due to its non linearity (hard spring).

Merlin

Merlin

Your talking about the MAV of the rod correct? Where during the forward cast does the fly rod reach its MAV; at RSP?

Lou

[Merlin]

Hi Lou

No, MAV (maximal angular velocity) takes place first, then MCL (approximately maximum elastic energy into the rod), and then RSP at the end of rod unloading. There can be between 70 ms to 150 ms delay in between MAV and RSP.

Merlin

[Lou Bruno]

Fly Leg.jpg

Graeme

What prevents the mend from becoming our normal loop...as in the PALD cast?

Also if during a normal vertical forward cast I move my rod tip
Perpendicular to the forward cast direction wouldn't I produce two transverse waves?
Lou

[Phil Blackmar]

I believe, that the haul has no impact on rod bend WHEN the rod already has some serious bend. The haul doesn't reach enough force.

I would say it has little visible impact since the rod stiffness has largely increased due to its non linearity (hard spring).

Merlin

I don't understand this. No matter how late I attempt to haul, if I haul abruptly and very quickly, I create either a tailing loop or at the very least, an upward kick of the fly at the end of the layout. Doesn't this mean the rod bent more if to get this result?

Thank you
Phil

As an aside, I have a son who has a masters degree in Ocean Engineering. At a baseball game, we were discussing the trajectory of a fly ball when he pointed out to me that, tho I could use many physics terms correctly, I actually knew very little since I didn't know the formulas and couldn't compute any results. It only appeared I was somewhat smart since I hung around a bunch of dumbass golfers....

[Walter]

I don't understand this. No matter how late I attempt to haul, if I haul abruptly and very quickly, I create either a tailing loop or at the very least, an upward kick of the fly at the end of the layout. Doesn't this mean the rod bent more if to get this result?

By hauling late do you mean after maximum rod bend and the rod has started to straighten?

I think what Daniel is describing is hauling before the rod starts to straighten, i.e. you’ve bent the rod as much as you can with the rod hand and now apply the haul before the rod begins to straighten. Since rod bend is not linearly proportional to the amount of force applied to it, it is difficult to cause significantly more bend by adding a haul at that point.

A lot of indefinite description in that last paragraph so i hope it makes sense.

[Merlin]

Hi Phil

I don't understand this. No matter how late I attempt to haul, if I haul abruptly and very quickly, I create either a tailing loop or at the very least, an upward kick of the fly at the end of the layout. Doesn't this mean the rod bent more if to get this result?

The rod does bend more due to the haul, and this is very true if your haul is sharp and quick. Now things depend on the timing and intensity of the haul by comparison to rod response to the cast. If your haul is “early” by comparison to MAV, then the tip of the rod can be driven down and up by the force generated by the haul and that creates a tail in the line. If the timing is such that the extra force is in synch with rod response, the extra force can just match the maximum load of the rod response and increase it. This is a source of extra stored energy into the rod that will be given back to the line (more speed) in the end. Depending on the intensity of the haul, this can drive the tip down and up or not. Beyond that point, making a later haul will face rod unloading and consequently will delay that unloading in time. You may not see any change in tip trajectory but if your haul is strong, the tip may make a small down and up trajectory, sending a small transverse wave into the line which you can see at the end of the rollover (assuming this does not come from a rigid leader).

Even if the tip trajectory is not visibly affected (it may just become straighter), the extra elastic energy given to the rod can be significant (e.g. 40% more). Maybe rod bending will be a couple of inches more, hidden by the position of the tip trajectory and the pull angle on the tip of the extra force created by the haul.

Merlin