Gaze Behaviours in Fly Casting Accuracy

[Lasse Karlsson]

How many zoom lessons have you given Bernd?

Cheers
Lasse

[Stoatstail50]

Oof…turning hot

We’ve lost the original thread now Craig but what is appropriate in one set of circs is inappropriate in another isn’t it ?

What we are ultimately training the caster to do is to auto select the appropriate movement for the task and environmental constraints. The more options the better.

One of the advantages of error amp and old way new way is that they not only interfere with and disrupt established patterns of motion, they can be used very effectively to encourage control over range by adding variability to a drill.

I think we’ve established in this and other threads that this is not consistent with some more traditional methods of teaching many of which focus, not on a wide controlled range but narrow.

Ironically these two techniques are just as effective for establishing narrow ranges too and would fit comfortably into traditionally designed lessons .

[Paul Arden]

Yep it’s a nice side business Bernd and means I can grow Sexyloops without taking money out of it all the time.

I have a chap on the East Coast of Malaysia who wants an in-person lesson. What a waste of time! He has to drive two hours here, two hours back again. For one hour? So maybe I make it two but I can do it in one. So that’s a rip off. Me, I’ve got to drive the boat up the lake, hang around. I talk socially to my Zoom students for 10 or 20 minutes afterwards, if we have time. But this chap could go on for hours I might lose a day of my life for a one hour lesson! And a huge amount of stress for both of us. He’s not going to make the trip every two weeks, that’s for sure! And all so unnecessary.

I’ve been getting professional swim coaching in KL for Ironman. Usually I make a trip around it eg upgrades done to the truck, bike fit, metabolic testing and so on. But one trip I went down just for the lesson. 4.5hrs down, 1hr in the pool, 5.5hrs back up (rain). And next day I was shattered. And what did she do? Took video of me underwater with a Go Pro, analysed it with me and set some drills. Now I can do that for the same money with the very best coaches in the world (Australia) with no travel time, just by having someone film me with my Go Pro and us having a Zoom conversation afterwards. So that’s what I’ll be doing next year!

Times have changed. The swim coach in Australia, who I want to be taught by, is based in Perth. I’ve actually considered flying there. But I’m going to Zoom instead.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Error amplification is an excellent tool. In the case of the wrist it might be internally focussed. But if you shift focus to narrowing and widening the loop you should get the same result or in fact better, particularly if you start with a short length of line. Eg 6-18’ of flyline.

Just had a snake in the boat. Now I’m going fishing!

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

But if you shift focus to narrowing and widening the loop you should get the same result or in fact better, particularly if you start with a short length of line. Eg 6-18’ of flyline.

I used to do that drill for my own benefit, using each joint and a freestyle combination to transition from the tightest to the widest possible loop, using all of the joints and body movements. Loop size being an external cue, of course

Canal fishing for pike today, it’s the only watercourse that isn’t out of its banks within a hundred miles.

No snakes anticipated.

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

Will did an excellent CPD presentation on this for the FFI some time back.

They’re very effective. Both techniques are actively employed in training everything from playing the trumpet to tennis.

[VGB]

I’ve used both but I’m still shite at tennis and trumpet

[Bernd Ziesche]

I have a chap on the East Coast of Malaysia who wants an in-person lesson. What a waste of time! He has to drive two hours here, two hours back again. For one hour? So maybe I make it two but I can do it in one. So that’s a rip off. Me, I’ve got to drive the boat up the lake, hang around. I talk socially to my Zoom students for 10 or 20 minutes afterwards, if we have time. But this chap could go on for hours I might lose a day of my life for a one hour lesson! And a huge amount of stress for both of us. He’s not going to make the trip every two weeks, that’s for sure! And all so unnecessary.

Hi Paul,
Stretching a 1 hour teaching content into 2 hours doesn't make it anymore worth coming from the learning point of view in my opinion (content remains the same). If talking to the student feels like lost time, that's maybe not the best condition anyway. I would think, that instead you could deliver more content/help in 2, 3 or more hours.
You could add fishing or whatever the 2 of you prefer.
Having an excellent day with a great fly fisherman and learning from him never was and never will be unnecessary to me. Precisely the opposite.
Maybe I am old school, but I still like being face to face much more than videocalls etc..

We could go fishing together. You fish on your side, I on my side. This way we share our fishing and recording the video call we could even watch us again.
I'd much rather come along all the way for one hour of physically fishing side by side! At least we wouldn't run out of battery or loose connection before you hook up the ultimate Toman.

Back to topic I love being able to choose the point of focus myself instead of being limited by the bottle neck. I believe everyone has some natural ability of knowing what to look for. There is a reason why picking focus and editing makes for very different movies of basically the same situation.
Cheers
B

[VGB]

Hi Bernd

I believe everyone has some natural ability of knowing what to look for.

Why do you think so few people look at their back cast?

Given the prevalence of casting to load the rod, you would expect they would look at the rod. However, it seems to me that when you set them a casting instead of a fishing task, they are lost because they normally fixate on the target. This fixation is learned behaviour because it places the fovea where it needs to be.

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Vince,
In all my education for teaching I was taught, that demonstrating and having the learner watch is a very effective method. In my own experience as being a teacher I soon had to realize, that students often have a strong visual focus rather than a listening focus. If I want to make sure they listen, I need to be excellent in my talking and not having my movements detracting most of the attention. Seems fair to summarize, that we are used to learn by watching a lot. Thus it's logical we too have automatically trained to have an idea where to look in order to get the information we want.
Now that doesn't mean we always know what we are missing and thus where to look at! It means, that students may have small things they automatically learn by watching without me knowing they needed or wanted that tiny information. It often was amazing what details were seen within a group. Helpful details though.
Not to watch the back cast ime comes from a long path on which many instructors explizit taught and published not to watch it. Also some types of stances make it hard. Then, if you don't know how, it easily can cause new trouble. All that and in addition most have already so much detraction in the water (slippery bottom, rocks, current, waves, wind, FISH), That switching focus seems a lot, if not learnt the how.
I have seen far more ffm loose control in the water as on grass. Even the best casters I saw struggling big time when not being used to fish a lot. Ok, let's be fair I am used to heavy fishing conditions.
In guiding situations when I want my clients to fish over a longer stretch, I mostly have to lead and be a mark to follow. Otherwise I keep pushing them by asking to not forget walking. The focus on the art of retrieving + the environmental difficulties make it hard to not focus in a way to cut out walking and watching the bc ime. However watching my position automatically from time to time and speed up seems much easier - especially for beginners. So here it's me helping to change focus for a moment when needed.
I think we have a proper natural ability to choose focus, but in complex and new situations the expert can help to optimize and not miss out important information. Also I big time help to have the energy available when fish start eating instead of having wasted it too early. Focussing easily can cost lots of energy...
Regards
B