Old way, new way.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Anyway yes, I think two one-hour lessons, given fresh, with 8-10hrs of training in-between, with a recording of each session, will take a student further along than one x 6hrs lesson, no matter if that is given 1-1 or 1-15. There is only so much information that can be remembered in one sitting and skills take significantly longer to embed than you think.

So in this regards it’s better value for money. But I would never sell a two-lesson “course”.

I prefer one full content lesson (5-6h) and then training 20 x half an hour (to be even with your 10h invest) with what sticks (without rechecking) + with what needs to be restudied by the script, videomaterial and individual notes over 2 short lessons meaning to obviously yet not even having a double haul or all key essensials for the rod hand included.

And here (hi Lasse) it wasn't too long ago you (Paul), I and many on SL agreed, that giving a short lesson and sending the student home missing a lot of keys (like double hauling for example) will mean to train in a poor misleading way easily. Not to forget that students have friends and may go fishing before a next lesson anyway. Then they learn by watching their friends.
So Lasse, you see Paul has changed his mind about this. He now prefers giving only small pieces of the cake per lesson hoping for the student to return and not to train more than what was set via the exercise given.

Maybe Paul once said to focus on the caster in the first place, Lasse. As you say I wasn't here and don't know. But he didn't lately. Precisely the opposite: external cues over internal cues for both.

About the WC it was 1m, not 2m. The third German was 2m in front of me (yes), but wasn't my student. My student however was best of us three. Only he had almost zero wind in the heat and back then 34,5m was not on the low end in such conditions. It was a hell of a length. In the warm up he hit several times upto 38,5m having more wind. That also wasn't on the low end back then.
Anyway, my point was, that unlike Paul I have a fair amount of experience in face to face teaching over many lessons.

Paul, why you didn't take the swimming lesson via Zoom but went all way to KL?
Cheers
B

[Bernd Ziesche]

For me it's very clear. Teaching via videocall and teaching face to face are both well worth taking the lesson with a proper instructor. Comparing both face to face is more effective and efficient for the teaching itself.
Comparing the circumstances around or prior teaching itself, online teaching brings some valuable advantages and some disadvantages.
For as long as I live we will have both. That I am 100% sure about. And I think most (instructors and students) will prefer face to face, if the instructor is near by.
I don't see a need to think in terms of it having to be only one way in the future and then trying to mark the new way as the best solution and the old ways of teaching to have been shit for decades.
I prefer to use both ways and denying the disadvantages of the new way instead of searching for how to make them less of a disadvantage doesn't seem very helpful to me. I am very new in online teaching and yet have to learn and improve a lot in this.
I think, for me there's no more to say in this.
Cheers
B

[VGB]

Bernd

Old way, new way is not to do with online teaching. As Mark explained on the “Defining Skill” Levels thread it is an effective teaching method to overcome engrained incorrect skills:

Old way/new way, of itself, obviously requires a learner to be able to “perform” both the old and the new way. Its purpose is to displace and then replace old learned behaviour with new learned behaviour.

And nobody is saying that the old ways of teaching are shit, only that there are other methods that have been shown to improve the rate of learning and retention as explained earlier:

https://www.sexyloops.co.uk/theboard/vi ... =40#p78007

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Next swim coaching sessions I’ll do online. It gives me access to better coaches I think, who are Australian based, and saves me a 10hr return trip. I did it at the time because I didn’t know any better.

I remember your student and your casting too. The technique is not going to get to a podium. But that’s not really what we are discussing. My philosophy on a lesson is to give the right amount and not to drown the student with information that he/she can’t process in one session. Video recording allows multiple bites at the cherry and hence more information to be distributed. But trying to give a 6 hr lesson is simply ridiculous.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

I don't see a need to think in terms of it having to be only one way in the future and then trying to mark the new way as the best solution and the old ways of teaching to have been shit for decades.

[Bernd Ziesche]

nobody is saying that the old ways of teaching are shit

trying to give a 6 hr lesson is simply ridiculous.

Call it ridiculous or shit doesn't make a difference to me. No need to tell Paul and I gave more than one 6 hour lesson together. All students were happy though.

Me being off topic, Vince, doesn't mean I didn't understand old way/ new way systematic.

About Andrej (Paul), he topped out 43,5m in training prior the WC back then with a 6wt. Z-Axis rod and a 6wt. line. That was the longest cast I had seen at the time. He was competitive in all competitions I had seen back then. Remember the hype when Menno won the Dutch BOW 5wt. MED tournament? 38,25m if I remember correct. Nice tailwind. Andrej hit such distances, too. Anyway feel free to tell what he was missing, that others had back then other than no wind.
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

1 and 2 day courses were a big part of my income for many years. I just don’t think it was very effective! Hopefully you can make everyone a little bit better and a step up the casting ladder.

Nowadays I think that the maximum duration for a casting coaching lesson is one hour. And most of it can be done in 40 minutes or less. Then they need specific training that is planned over a time scale (I recommend 8-10 hours over 2-4 weeks, preferably 2 weeks at first but fishing and winters can get in the way of that!).

If you are changing the pattern of the hauls for example, then there is a lot of training required, some very specific drilling and broader exercises. This development can take multiple lessons constantly refining and training. The haul is also a variable.

For me nowadays, coaching is about setting drills and exercises that allow for exploration of movement, that allow the student to dial in specific movement patterns that we know are more effective, that allows movements to become autonomous and builds a range of movement to cope with variable line lengths, wind directions and loop planes and trajectories.

Many instructors appear to try to fix casts one cast at a time. Which is a very ineffective way of going about it, particularly when dealing with something as variable as the casting stroke.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Paul,
If you think, that teaching a novice for 40min online with all the restrictions and then have him exercise for 8 to 10h, this tells me you haven't zoom taught novices at all.
Seems you have forgotten what a novice first needs for decent performing. Or maybe you have him exercise 8h the grip without casting the line first, just to give a tiny example.
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

I do also teach beginners. I teach them drills and exercises to explore, like everyone else. I don’t need to be there while they work through them. And if they do have any questions I’m available for that. I don’t think you need to hold their hand all the time and in fact it’s far better if you don’t.

In person I would never give a more than 2hr lesson to a complete beginner anyway. And 90 minutes should be more than enough.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

And 90 minutes should be more than enough.

If 90 min is more than enough, I take it 80min is enough. So what basic content you give to a novice in the beginning of those 80 minutes before providing him with drills and exercises (must be at least 4 though)? I take it 2 drills and 2 exercises need at least 40 minutes to be delivered. That's just 10 minutes each. So you have 40 minutes left for basics.