Old way, new way.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Vince,
For me there is.
I can teach a student to match the size of arc to the desired loop shape for example. A novice can perform in 2 minutes. Not perfect, but he can. AoE takes more time. It goes in a circle, not straight imo.
Regards
B

[VGB]

Hi Bernd

I can teach a student to match the size of arc to the desired loop shape for example. A novice can perform in 2 minutes. Not perfect, but he can. AoE takes more time.

A single solution under instructor control vs multiple solutions under student control and it takes very little time.

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

Those students mostly don't like what I see here sometimes, answering a question with asking another question.
Most want to know the clear information needed to pass the exam. More than fair to me.
🖐

Lemov addresses feedback under 3 headings with 301 being the most advanced:

“Level 301 focuses on using feedback to foster decision-making and therefore providing feedback through questions or by creating situations that cause players to problem-solve. In the long run, we want athletes to ask themselves questions, to engage in constant self-reflection. We teach them to do that by modeling those processes for them and, in ensuring that they help players succeed, convincing them of their benefits.”

— The Coach's Guide to Teaching by Doug Lemov
https://amzn.eu/4ZXNFmk

I think providing self sufficiency should be encouraged for proto instructors as well as students. Just gathering enough facts to pass the assessment is poor preparation for giving lessons to a paying public imo.

Level 101 describes the fundamentals of feedback, 201 Level focuses on what happens after you give athletes feedback, specifically monitoring whether and how they apply the guidance that has been given. This chapter alone makes the book worth reading.

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Bernd

I can teach a student to match the size of arc to the desired loop shape for example. A novice can perform in 2 minutes. Not perfect, but he can. AoE takes more time.

A single solution under instructor control vs multiple solutions under student control and it takes very little time.

Hi Vince,
Why you limit the single solution to not work without the instructor next the student as if nothing but only self discovered content can stick? Makes no sense to me.
AoE does not offer multiple solutions per se.
I can teach the upper by AoE and have my student over do for a while until he realizes.... Its still NOT giving several keys to tighten the loops.
If I teach AoE all lesson it slows down in the amount of keys I can teach in the same time. Its not that little time as you say then...

Lemov writes about teaching athletes. What age are they? Ime older students don't ask for the same style of teaching like I may teach a youngster. I dont think its smart to generalize or apply findings from other sports, in which we have different circumstances not only in the variety of students.
Regards
Bernd

[VGB]

AoE does not offer multiple solutions per se.
I can teach the upper by AoE and have my student over do for a while until he realizes.... Its still NOT giving several keys to tighten the loops.

Tight loop to non loop and all points in between, there are an infinite range of solutions available. Why would you only teach tight loops?

nothing but only self discovered content can stick? Makes no sense to me.

It’s guided self discovery Bernd. You should probably read into the Constraints Led Approach and how you as a coach can lead them to a better movement solution.

If I teach AoE all lesson it slows down in the amount of keys I can teach in the same time. Its not that little time as you say then...

Why would you teach it all lesson, it’s just one of the tools at our disposal? Old Way, New way is another.

Lemov writes about teaching athletes.

Have you actually read any of this stuff, or are you just objecting on principle because your assumptions about the content are totally incorrect?

I dont think its smart to generalize or apply findings from other sports, in which we have different circumstances not only in the variety of students.

Do you think that other sports don’t have different circumstances and a wide range of students? Fly casters are not some distinct alien species that learn or move differently to the normal human population and I find it quite a bizarre objectification to the science.

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

Why you limit the single solution to not work without the instructor next the student as if nothing but only self discovered content can stick? Makes no sense to me.

Makes no sense to me either…but I don’t think that’s what is implied by any of the threads in this section. What is being said is that if we adapt our teaching methodologies to be closer to the way people learn to move, it is probable that more will stick than if we use a teaching methodology more distant. This is not the same as saying those methodologies don’t work, simply that there may be a more effective one.

This is connected to the next point.

I dont think its smart to generalize or apply findings from other sports, in which we have different circumstances not only in the variety of students.

Most of the findings that are referred to here are studies in human cognitive psychology. Some of them are indeed sports related but others, Ericsson for example, are about playing the piano, there are papers out there on the training of paediatric surgeons, conjurors, carpenters and blacksmiths. They are necessarily generalised because they are making statements about how the minds of a population are consistently observed to function with respect to learning movement.

What other sports have done is to take these observations and adapt the theory to the practice such that it fits the specific needs of that sport. It’s not at all difficult to do this for fly casting IMO.

Ime older students don't ask for the same style of teaching like I may teach a youngster.

Totally agree, there’s a whole raft of stuff on brain plasticity and fine motor skills development out there if you’re interested. Things get very hard with the elderly, that’s rarely about learning though, in my experience it’s about delaying losses.

[VGB]

Hi Bernd

You may find this material a bit more friendly

https://gwulf.faculty.unlv.edu/wp-conte ... Lernen.pdf

https://gwulf.faculty.unlv.edu/wp-conte ... 4_Wulf.pdf

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/ ... edir_esc=y


https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/226128607.pdf

https://www.ssoar.info/ssoar/bitstream/ ... ort_im.pdf

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

Why would you only teach tight loops?

I can teach a student to match the size of arc to the desired loop shape for example.

Desired loop shape = all kinds of loops included.

nothing but only self discovered content can stick? Makes no sense to me.

It’s guided self discovery Bernd. You should probably read into the Constraints Led Approach and how you as a coach can lead them to a better movement solution.

I did read quite some about it and understand. However there is no best solution in general, that fits all teaching requirements best. I have said it many times: What matters is, if it sticks and will work. I were given (not self discovering) many things in seconds and they sticked perfectly. I also self discovered things and forgot again. The key to best instruction is to know when and how to use which way of teaching. No study can judge the quality of your results. They will remain to only be reflected in your student's abilities.

Why would you teach it all lesson, it’s just one of the tools at our disposal? Old Way, New way is another.

I use AoE only for demonstration. I hardly have my students overdo things on purpose.
Still AoE takes more time. No way out.

Lemov writes about teaching athletes.

Have you actually read any of this stuff, or are you just objecting on principle because your assumptions about the content are totally incorrect?

I dont think its smart to generalize or apply findings from other sports, in which we have different circumstances not only in the variety of students.

Do you think that other sports don’t have different circumstances and a wide range of students? Fly casters are not some distinct alien species that learn or move differently to the normal human population and I find it quite a bizarre objectification to the science.

My point was, that we have very few athletes, but mainly ppl. of all ages and fitness wanting to enjoy fishing. Its not nearly about competition like in most sports. We fish together not against each other.
And we dont need longest possible casts or as many casts as possible or go to our physical limits often. Again pretty different in my experience.
Regards
Bernd

[VGB]

Hi Bernd

I were given (not self discovering) many things in seconds and they sticked perfectly. I also self discovered things and forgot again.

What made you remember, what made you forget?

I use AoE only for demonstration. I hardly have my students overdo things on purpose.
Still AoE takes more time. No way out.

I don’t run my lessons for more than 2 hours and I have never run out of time. It’s more likely that I have to get the student to take a break.

My point was, that we have very few athletes, but mainly ppl. of all ages and fitness wanting to enjoy fishing. Its not nearly about competition like in most sports. We fish together not against each other.

I agree with you, my ideal lesson ends with a fish in the net. However, Lemov is broad brush and includes a wide range of people and skills, it’s not all about athletes.

And we dont need longest possible casts or as many casts as possible or go to our physical limits often. Again pretty different in my experience.

Also agree that we needs a range of tools to meet our objectives and need the information and skills to tailor the tools accordingly. Knowing how the student works is far more useful to me than knowing about rod load.

Regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

I were given (not self discovering) many things in seconds and they sticked perfectly. I also self discovered things and forgot again.

What made you remember, what made you forget?

Hi Vince,
What made me forget.... I have fished over 300 days per year for almost 2 decades now. Often I focussed on becoming better and finding small pieces of a puzzle in mastering to catch a certain species of fish under all different circumstances. When the puzzle was put together, I jumped on the next species of fish. In addition I studied fly casting details a lot and designed new flies at night. It's the huge amount of information, that makes me forget things sometimes...
What makes me remember usually, is the importance of the information I get or find. This year I discovered one last missing piece in chasing asp. For years I was looking for an explanation and when I finally found it, I was quite moved. Dont think I could ever forget it. Same in casting. For years I tried to get my loops looking pointy on purpose and find someone who could explain me how to shape them. When it clicked, I was very happy and wont forget.
It can be about how often I use the information or skill. And it can also be who gave it to me or about the emotion caused by getting it.
Or sometimes I simply wrote things down.
My lectures on fishing for a certain species of fish are a great way to keep the pieces of puzzles together!
Regards
Bernd