Old way, new way.

[Stoatstail50]

Old way new way original paper here

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1 ... 00200244

[Stoatstail50]

Page 1

Given that most if not all students come to the skill learning situation with preconceived notions of how things work, and how to manipulate equipment and tools, the potential for incomplete or misinformation and for poor, incorrect or even unsafe work practices is high. Students who exhibit persistent misconceptions and bad habits present a real challenge to the teacher who is attempting to help them achieve competence.
Conventional teaching methods generally focus on improving the effectiveness of the initial teaching phase (‘getting it right the first time’) and on subsequent re-teaching when progress is unsatisfactory (‘remediation’). However, in terms of unlearning theory, simply persevering with getting the student to practise the ‘right’ way, while ignoring what the student already knows (especially their incorrect technique), will activate habit interference with learning of the correct skill and greatly slow down or block skill acquisition.

[easterncaster]

Page 1

Given that most if not all students come to the skill learning situation with preconceived notions of how things work, and how to manipulate equipment and tools, the potential for incomplete or misinformation and for poor, incorrect or even unsafe work practices is high. Students who exhibit persistent misconceptions and bad habits present a real challenge to the teacher who is attempting to help them achieve competence.
Conventional teaching methods generally focus on improving the effectiveness of the initial teaching phase (‘getting it right the first time’) and on subsequent re-teaching when progress is unsatisfactory (‘remediation’). However, in terms of unlearning theory, simply persevering with getting the student to practise the ‘right’ way, while ignoring what the student already knows (especially their incorrect technique), will activate habit interference with learning of the correct skill and greatly slow down or block skill acquisition.

Took note of that as well!

I recall at the Whitefish FFF Conclave a class: "First time, every time"

[Stoatstail50]

…simply persevering with getting the student to practise the ‘right’ way, while ignoring what the student already knows (especially their incorrect technique), will activate habit interference with learning of the correct skill and greatly slow down or block skill acquisition.

This bit is an explanation for why a direct instruction to “use less wrist” is often not delivered by the caster, just as you described in the other thread.

It also explains in general terms one of the reasons why the direct addressing and correction of faults with your student is a slow or even totally ineffective way of improving accuracy of movement in the long run.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Mark,
I think one huge factor is:
Who gave the incorrect information or supported the poor technique vs. who supports to change or improve.
To some instructors I listened very different than when hearing others talk about basically the same area of casting. The respect and recognition my teacher has, plays a huge roll in what I do with the information given.
I find it hard to generalize too much here. In the end as a teacher I can check the outcome. Luckily I often can in long terms, too.
Cheers
B

[Stoatstail50]

The respect and recognition my teacher has, plays a huge roll in what I do with the information given.

Yes, this is true for most students.

It means that the processing of information is often influenced by the fame and notoriety of the person delivering it rather than it's veracity or value.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Hi Mark,
veracity is a tricky aspect. How does a student know the correctness of what's getting delivered?
I could fill 2 books with wrong stuff I did pick up in lessons.
Fame of an instructor of course does not guarantee or support for correctness at all. But it seems most have a tendence to trust for correctness more here.
Looking back at my first lessons with some of the well known instructors I d never have thought for the incorrectness some of the content had. And to remain fair, they still were recognized, because they were better than many others.
Anyway for those who have believed and worked with a certain movement for long, its most important to make it click why a change will be an improvement and turn out to their best in long terms.
Again it's quite an aspect to bear in mind, that we often have limited time. Those studies often were made in different circumstances for other sports. That doesnt make them less worth checking. I just believe, that we always had and still have excellent teachers in fly fishing, too. In the end it's the student who rates the teacher, not a studie. The student is the one who books us, not any study. And students have very different motivations to enter lessons.
Cheers
B

[VGB]

Is a wide loop correct or incorrect?

[Stoatstail50]

How does a student know the correctness of what's getting delivered?

They don’t know, can’t even, they take it on trust. It is the responsibility of the instructor to check the veracity of the information they’re giving.

Anyway for those who have believed and worked with a certain movement for long, its most important to make it click why a change will be an improvement and turn out to their best in long terms.

Totally agree.

Again it's quite an aspect to bear in mind, that we often have limited time.

Also agree. I think this places a responsibility on us to use it as effectively as possible.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Is a wide loop correct or incorrect?

It's correct as long as it was shaped smoothly (not wavy). Of course, if a tight loop was desired or necessary... there's room for improvement or improvement might be necessary.

Mark,