Old way, new way.

[VGB]

It's correct as long as it was shaped smoothly (not wavy). Of course, if a tight loop was desired or necessary... there's room for improvement or improvement might be necessary.

So I think that we would all agree that an angler requires to learn a wide range, instead of 1 correct movement. What type of instructional techniques would you recommend such that student will be able to adapt their cast without an instructor providing feedback?

regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

So I think that we would all agree that an angler requires to learn a wide range, instead of 1 correct movement.

I do agree, but it seems many don't.
The 5E's are so popular still, while yet having the only focus on not just tight loops, but THE tightest loops possible. The constant message is to strive for SLP = tightest possible loop. Opposite of what you and I agree on though.

What type of instructional techniques would you recommend such that student will be able to adapt their cast without an instructor providing feedback?

Whatever works to make them understand and then click by seeing and feeling the successful performance.
Individual what works best, but proper structure was very important and too often missed when I was the student.

[VGB]

The 5E's are so popular still, while yet having the only focus on not just tight loops, but THE tightest loops possible. The constant message is to strive for SLP = tightest possible loop. Opposite of what you and I agree on though.

I still think that SLP is one of the most powerful tools that we have but it is often misrepresented and misused.

Whatever works to make them understand and then click by seeing and feeling the successful performance.

Do you have any examples of good instructional techniques or drills to promote a wide range of control without instructor feedback?

regards

Vince

[Bernd Ziesche]

I worked a lot with a set of 6 essentials targeting to be able to adjust loop shape, line speed and trajectory. One or two exercises per essential.
Putting some fish in different distances to then adjust the presentation is one. In all exercises I make sure they know what and how to contril the proper execution.
Most important: line length remain in the control range, one focus at a time and not much false casting to keep energy and attention high.
To present all exercises in detail would be too much here. Anyway I keep them simple, so it's no need for me to be around later on.

SLP for when trying to shape tightest loops possible I like. As long as it isn't SLP RSP0 to RSP1 nonsense. Still we don't see tip path details in real speed, which might be my biggest concern. So it really depends on who it is and what's it going to be aimed for.

[Stoatstail50]

So I think that we would all agree that an angler requires to learn a wide range, instead of 1 correct movement.

I do agree, but it seems many don't.

Many agree in fact… but then go on to teach the one correct movement.

[Bernd Ziesche]

Many agree in fact… but then go on to teach the one correct movement.

I still think that SLP is one of the most powerful tools that we have but it is often misrepresented and misused.

Mark,
5Es are a perfect example to me.
They were built as a 4E construct resulting in what's desired in the fifth E. If one could perform the fifth E, the other 4 weren't needed, nor was the fifth, if one controlled the other 4 (leaving aside, that there were things missing). But the overlaying goal (tightest possible loop) was something then, which we only at times needed in fishing. Still today many use the 5Es as a head line and have added stuff or use them differently. SLP still mostly is seen as SLP RSP0 to RSP1 just as originally thought of.
All critics were widely accepted, but the 5Es original version still is being held on by some who like to think to be updated.
Creep is the same...
Everyone agrees, that creep is a movement. And a movement can't be wrong per se. Still its called a mistake all over the planet.
An example the other way round is Spey casting. It was well defined 20 years ago. Today it's been used for nearly everything, even dh rods, which are now called Spey rods (by some).
That's just how it is in fly fishing.
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

They were built as a 4E construct resulting in what's desired in the fifth E.

Actually that highly insightful realisation came later.

It’s nice to be able to jump back in time to remember what life was like before the Five Esentials to recognise how significant a contribution they have been.

It’s a beautiful model. One has to understand that it is a model. Something which appears to have escaped very many people since!

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Still today many use the 5Es as a head line and have added stuff or use them differently. SLP still mostly is seen as SLP RSP0 to RSP1 just as originally thought of.
All critics were widely accepted, but the 5Es original version still is being held on by some who like to think to be updated.

It’s why I look to information that has been subject to verification and validation, maybe even with peer review. Unfortunately this sort of informational quality can only be found in books and papers written by non fly fishermen

Regards

Vince

[Lasse Karlsson]

An example the other way round is Spey casting. It was well defined 20 years ago. Today it's been used for nearly everything, even dh rods, which are now called Spey rods (by some).
That's just how it is in fly fishing.
Cheers
B

What was the clear definition of speycasting 20 years ago? I don't remember it other than the debates from the underhand fraternity claiming a chopped up DT line was a new invention and made a anchored cast something completly new. And those long twohanded rods where called speyrods in the shiny american flyfishing magazines I bought in the early 90's. Must be a timetravel issue...

Cheers
Lasse

[Bernd Ziesche]

They were built as a 4E construct resulting in what's desired in the fifth E.

Actually that highly insightful realisation came later.

Hi Paul,
Yes, but it did. I also realized long ago, that tightest possible loops mostly don't support my fishing.

...to recognise how significant a contribution they have been.

HAD been, yes. Agree!

Hi Vince,
Agree!

Hi Lasse,
significant COD to be included and a bc, that anchors on the water. I gave a first demo about it (I think) 17 or 18 years ago. For preparing it, I send emails to a serious number of instructors who had worked with Spey casting a lot. Andy Murray, Ian Gordon, Michael Evans, Simon Gawesworth and some more. There was no one excluding the COD at the time.
Clearly changed over the years.
Cheers
B