Further skills development

[Paul Arden]

Hi Paul,

Setting aside the loop plane, distance performance is a function of haul hand and rod hand speed. Movement timing, or sequencing, determines that speed outcome. They are dependent, and for me, that linkage is the interesting coaching challenge.

John

I agree on the haul, John. What I’m not sure about is the rod hand speed. Which is really speed of rotation I think.

I have an interesting exercise, where I have the student maintain the fast haul, but drop rod force to 90%, then 80%, then 70%, and even 60%. It’s not uncommon for distance to go up with less rod force (at least to a point). I think that there are some reasons for this. Firstly the loops tighten. But I’ve always thought with my own casting, that there is a direct link between the speed of the haul and the amount of force we can apply to the rod and it favours the haul not rod.

It’s very common to see a trained distance caster throwing far further than an untrained one using what appears to be less effort. It would be interesting to have some nunbers on this.

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

Great book, worth reading for anyone teaching movements in sports.

Have you read it Bernd?

[VGB]

It’s very common to see a trained distance caster throwing far further than an untrained one using what appears to be less effort. It would be interesting to have some nunbers on this.

I don’t think that observation is unique to distance casters, I trod that path myself.

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi Paul,

Setting aside the loop plane, distance performance is a function of haul hand and rod hand speed. Movement timing, or sequencing, determines that speed outcome. They are dependent, and for me, that linkage is the interesting coaching challenge.

John

I agree on the haul, John. What I’m not sure about is the rod hand speed. Which is really speed of rotation I think.

I have an interesting exercise, where I have the student maintain the fast haul, but drop rod force to 90%, then 80%, then 70%, and even 60%. It’s not uncommon for distance to go up with less rod force (at least to a point). I think that there are some reasons for this. Firstly the loops tighten. But I’ve always thought with my own casting, that there is a direct link between the speed of the haul and the amount of force we can apply to the rod and it favours the haul not rod.

It’s very common to see a trained distance caster throwing far further than an untrained one using what appears to be less effort. It would be interesting to have some nunbers on this.

Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul,

You are correct about haul hand speed, the faster the hand is moving immediately before line release the greater the impact on the line. I think the same applies to the rod hand in respect of vertical velocity, horizontal velocity and angular velocity of wrist and rod. In my opinion, for any given angular velocity, the greater the horizontal velocity of the rod hand, the greater the rod tip speed and thus, line speed. Data will either support that statement, or it will reject it. The fly line is like any other projectile, the faster it is released, the further it will go. However, and it is a big "however", sag in the pre-release backcast will negatively impact that. Stepping is one way to minimise that negative.The same may be the explanation for your teaching example. Excess force applied by any segment of the rod hand side of the body's proximal to distal patterning will distort that straight line shape, e.g. power ripples in the line. The key is to accelerate each segment just as the preceding segment decelerates. IMHO, that is an essential of long line casting as much as it is an essential of all other throwing and hitting sports. However, IMHO, for some reason unknown to me, we do not maximise rod hand speed in distance casting and that limits performance.

John

[Lasse Karlsson]

It’s very common to see a trained distance caster throwing far further than an untrained one using what appears to be less effort. It would be interesting to have some nunbers on this.

I don’t think that observation is unique to distance casters, I trod that path myself.

Regards

Vince

I think that goes for any kind of movement, the better coordination, the less effort needed for a similar outcome.

Grüß
Lasse

[VGB]

I think that goes for any kind of movement, the better coordination, the less effort needed for a similar outcome.

Good call that

[Paul Arden]

There are too many unknowns in this for me to answer definitively my John. Carry is a key distance limiter. Loop size and line speed have an interesting correlation because the more force we put into the cast the greater the resulting counterflex. The rod tip is retarded by hauling and I think this may tie up with the relationship between hauling speed and rod hand force. And then we have to dissect translation of the rod hand, which primarily increases the haul speed, and rotation which is the key driver of the line. What finally, how does the rod bend/unloading impact all of this?

Be that as it may, what I would point out is that increase in distance compared to line speed (or effort) is not 1:1. Eg 75% of max effort is not 75% of the distance but closer to 90%.

I’m going to put my next out here and suggest that increased line speed only makes a difference after the loop has unrolled and is still carrying through the air. It can also make a difference for carry I know, but since we are limited by largely by head length, we normally don’t need our maximum speed backcast, indeed it can even be detrimental with a kick at Loop Straight.

I do wish we know more.

Cheers, Paul

[Bernd Ziesche]

Have you read it Bernd?

Not fully. Client of mine had it with him on Rügen. He teaches sport in High school. I had 3 evenigs to read into it. Good key points in it for sure.
But there are many other great books as well. If only we'd have more time. I usually stay within fly fishing related books etc..
Cheers
B

[John Waters]

There are too many unknowns in this for me to answer definitively my John. Carry is a key distance limiter. Loop size and line speed have an interesting correlation because the more force we put into the cast the greater the resulting counterflex. The rod tip is retarded by hauling and I think this may tie up with the relationship between hauling speed and rod hand force. And then we have to dissect translation of the rod hand, which primarily increases the haul speed, and rotation which is the key driver of the line. What finally, how does the rod bend/unloading impact all of this?

Be that as it may, what I would point out is that increase in distance compared to line speed (or effort) is not 1:1. Eg 75% of max effort is not 75% of the distance but closer to 90%.

I’m going to put my next out here and suggest that increased line speed only makes a difference after the loop has unrolled and is still carrying through the air. It can also make a difference for carry I know, but since we are limited by largely by head length, we normally don’t need our maximum speed backcast, indeed it can even be detrimental with a kick at Loop Straight.

I do wish we know more.

Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul,

Agree there are many unknowns in our sport. The what and how of movement range and sequencing (coordination) is yet to be exhausted. Fortunately, the what and how of instruction is now getting a focus. Carry is critical for the MED performance because of its impact on line momentum, but that impact depends on hand speed as shown in the enhance performance delivered through the 170 technique. Sag is reduced, the line is more tall and straighter at the start of the delivery stroke. You are absolutely correct about force and counter flex. When I started increasing hand speed it was a problem and I had to look at rod stiffness. As I've said in many posts, everything we do in casting depends on the objective, fishing is different to competition. Time involved, opportunity for success and performance deliverables have very different. That's why in fishing the guideline of only using enough power to straighten the line and leader at your desired distance is valid. In competition, that is limiting.

I agree, we do have to better understand the impact of what currently may seem to be competing determinants of performance. Angular velocity is a critical key performance indicator but it is dependent on linear velocity.

It's always fun to push the boundaries,

John

[Stoatstail50]

Have you read it Bernd?

Not fully. Client of mine had it with him on Rügen. He teaches sport in High school. I had 3 evenigs to read into it. Good key points in it for sure.
But there are many other great books as well. If only we'd have more time. I usually stay within fly fishing related books etc..
Cheers
B

They’re all interesting one way or another. I’ve read the synopsis and a couple of sample chapters in English. Looks worth a read definitely.